By Hollywood
Ladies, I’m happy to report on our stake conference last week where we were able to hear from President Hinckley. As usual, his talk was direct and refreshing. His topic was the marital relationship. Some of you may have already heard him read the letter that he received from a woman. She asked him if there was anything more to hope from life than being “barefoot and pregnant” and expressed concern for her daughters being raised in the church turning out as miserable as she was. Then the prophet put the smack down.
I didn’t write down his words exactly, but this is pretty close to what he said:
I am tired of hearing this complaint. Of course the church believes in families. The scriptures say to multiply and replenish the earth. But we do not specify a number. That decision lies between the couple and the lord. The problem this woman is facing is between her and her husband, not the church.
My husband and I were sitting in the very back of the cultural hall, listening and as he spoke, you could see all the couples ahead of us giving each other excited looks. Of course, this is not news. We are told that not everyone has to have 10 kids. But for some reason there is pressure to produce. Maybe because the past generations have had different notions of righteousness and duty. Maybe because martyrdom is so hip. But I tucked this talk away in my pocket and intend to pull it out whenever I’m asked by my in-laws where their next grandbaby is.
I was thrilled when I found out I was expecting my second baby. I’ve always assumed I’d be one of those Mormon moms who would have 5 or 6 kids. My husband and I both come from double digit families and loved the experiences we had growing up. We always assumed our kids would have the same experience. But at six months pregnant, I had an unexpected, persistent thought. Two children could really be the perfect size for my family. I didn’t have to have more. Two children would work really well for us. I didn’t say anything to my husband, not wanting to hijack my plans for a larger family. But the peaceful feeling remained throughout my pregnancy and after delivery.
When my baby was about a month old, my husband and I were enjoying a quiet evening together after the girls had gone to sleep. My husband gave me a careful look then said, “honey, I think two kids is the right number for us.” He then braced himself, waiting for me to explode. He was shocked when I smiled instead and said that I’d been feeling that way as well for months. We began talking about it. It turns out, he had had this same strong impression right about the same time I had months ago.
As a happy mother of two, this joint revelation to myself and my husband has made my daily mothering less stressful. I enjoy the children I have without stressing that I’m falling behind in procreation. Who knows, maybe a time will come when we feel inspired to increase our family but for now, our decision has brought peace to our relationship and family, knowing we’re working under the Spirit’s direction. The expectations others have for us don’t bother us anymore since we know our family is being guided by the gospel and the Lord’s individual plan for us.
We women of the church can only be second class citizens if we let ourselves. Be it one or sixteen kids, it’s a number the Lord will help you determine. Don’t let anyone convince you otherwise!
End Rant.




I can bear testimony that the Lord is ready and waiting to guide you in this matter, very specifically if you ask. We have five children set apart for our family, and we’ve known it since shortly after we were married, because we *asked.*
Good thing we asked, too, because my first was a boy and my second was a girl and I would have stopped there!
Now expecting our fourth.
Comment #1 by KermitJanuary 19th, 2008 at 1:13 pmI’m glad he’s spreading this message and reminding people. I hope our culture can change so that we no longer assume righteousness based on family size. I personally have never really experienced this, but I know people who have. I have a lot of difficulty during pregnancy and birth. With my last baby I experienced complications that were life-threatening. We’ll likely only have the two kids we have, possibly a third. I think the desire to have kids and our commitment to our family have nothing to do with the size of our family.
PS–I know a lot of people who decide they’re done after having two kids close together. Then they take a break for a few years and realize they want more. Watch out for that baby hunger a few years down the road…
Comment #2 by FoxyJJanuary 19th, 2008 at 1:26 pmAmen. Thanks for a great post.
Comment #3 by NGJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:03 pmLove this!! I am really tired of feeling this pressure to “race” to have our kids. I am fine with having 3-4 years between my kids because that is the way I think God has intended for our family. So many people I have talked to have so many expectations put on them to have a lot of kids, just because they themselves come from large families. Thank you for sharing, it makes me feel really good to hear the prophet say things like this.
Comment #4 by AngieJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pmI like how you said that this is nothing new. I’ve found that women who feel the need to defend themselves for not having more children either A. Feel guilty because they actually think they’re supposed to have more kids but they don’t want to, or B. Don’t understand the doctrine of families like Pres. Hinckley said. They shouldn’t have to feel guilty for doing what the Lord has told them to do.
I loved, loved, loved it when you said that you and your husband felt the same way about it. That is EXACTLY how it’s supposed to happen (not necessarily in the exact way, but you know what I mean).
I’m facing my own problem (and I feel very vulnerable in declaring it publicly). I think I want to be done (we have four). But the Lord has made it very obvious to both my husband and I that we are not. So, I fall into category A. I just don’t want other people to think I’m being some kind of martyr for doing what I’m supposed to be doing. Dang! Now I’m being defensive. ~sigh~
Anyway, very good post Hollywood. It’s nice to hear what the Prophet has to say on a local level because it leaves little room for argument, you know?
Comment #5 by cherylJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:30 pmAwesome! When someone as positive and upbeat as Pres. Hinckley blows a gasket (ok, not quite, but still) you know people have gone too far astray.
“Be it one or sixteen kids, it’s a number the Lord will help you determine.” That’s almost exactly how I say it when talking about this with others.
Comment #6 by RayJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:35 pmI too am struggling with how many children to have. We already have 4 kids. And most of the time my 4 kids wear me out like crazy. They are good kids, they’re just young and not very independent. So caring for them is a huge job. I often wonder if we should just be doing having children. And yet I keep having this nagging feeling that we’re not done. Sometimes when my kids are playing and I do a head count I feel like someone is missing.
I don’t feel pressure from anyone to have more children. I just want to make sure there’s enough mom to go around. I don’t want any of my kids to feel short changed when it comes to personal parent time.
Looks like I need to consult Heavenly Father in this matter…
Comment #7 by apple pieJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:53 pmDONE having kids…that is. Gotta proof read.
Comment #8 by apple pieJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:54 pmAmen to all of this!
Comment #9 by JennyJanuary 19th, 2008 at 2:58 pmMe again. I’ve got a question for you gals. Have any of you felt like you really wanted to have more children and then when you consulted the Lord, He said no?
Comment #10 by apple pieJanuary 19th, 2008 at 3:08 pmMe. I want another. And the word is, no.
Anyone know where I can get a transcript of this talk by Pres. Hinkley??
Comment #11 by Tracy MJanuary 19th, 2008 at 3:47 pmI would have stopped at two, but I knew there was a third. Now, we’re both pretty dang sure that’s it. Barring any future revelations (which of course you cannot rule out) we’re done.
No, apple pie, I haven’t felt that, but I know someone who has. She only has one, wanted more, but then they both got the strong answer that their family was complete.
Comment #12 by The WizJanuary 19th, 2008 at 3:49 pmThis is so good to hear. It’s something that you already KNOW, but it’s always nice to hear the Prophets perspective. Like many girls I had a ‘number’ before I was married (let alone before I had a baby) and now I feel that it’s silly to do that before you’re really there, in the midst of it all and certainly before you’ve bothered consulting with the Lord.
Comment #13 by MiggyJanuary 19th, 2008 at 4:16 pmThank you. My mother entered into her marriage fully intending to produce 12 offspring. Then she had twins when she was 21. The number sank to 10. She then had my 10 lb brother. 8. 8 might be good. One more brother…ok. Maybe 4 was it. She was exhausted! However, my little sister was NOT going to be left behind. My mother had 5 kids, and every one of us belongs to that family. She listened to her heart and figured out what was right…and listened to the Lord when he (read: my little sister) informed her she was NOT QUITE DONE.
Comment #14 by TeahJanuary 19th, 2008 at 4:42 pmThis is interesting because I’m only pregnant with #2, but part of me has always thought “Isn’t it a great desire to want to bring as many spirits down to a good LDS family as possible? Shouldn’t I have 10 kids just to give more a chance to grow up in a home with the gospel?”
But then you get married and start having kids and you realize that this is totallly contingent on the mother’s (and father’s) sanity. If you’re not going to be good parents to them then you’re not doing anyone a favor. It doesn’t matter if they’ve come to a home with the gospel in it, if you’re having 10 hoodlum children who you’re not able to raise well because you’re totally overwhelmed and not happy then you’ve probably done more damage than good. So yes, you must figure out between the two of you and the Lord what the right number is for your family. I just love President Hinckley.
Comment #15 by StarababaJanuary 19th, 2008 at 5:04 pmThe jury is still out on whether we should have more.
We have a 20 year old and a 3 year old. AS you can see, we’re not really good with the close in age spacing of our kids.
I am very interested in finding out how to hear the answer from God. I pray about quite a few things but, I never hear the answer. Maybe I hear the answer but, I’m not aware it’s God speaking to me or something.
Comment #16 by tanyettaJanuary 19th, 2008 at 5:55 pmI was at the same “stake conference”—in my stake (HB North). What’s the deal with the joint stake conference thing? Or was it a regional conference? I was confused by that.
I wanted more kids. Got the no answer.
Comment #17 by Susan MJanuary 19th, 2008 at 5:59 pmThough it’s not a transcript, I did find a summary of the broadcast here:
http://oneldsview.blogspot.com/2008/01/90-stake-conference.html
Comment #18 by MacyJanuary 19th, 2008 at 7:25 pmI think it’s important sometimes to use our intellect and then consult the lord.
We have three and I knew a long time ago that was the right number. I’ve never regretted that or felt the need to add more. But I thought about it quite a bit, analyzed the life my husband and I have, came to a conclusion of 3 kids, and then consulted with the Lord. He agreed.
But there is a girl in my ward who am I friends with who is on number 8. She keeps saying she wishes she was done, but HF hasn’t told her she’s finished yet. I keep thinking that if she would look at the situation logically maybe she would realize that after 8 and not really wanting any more children - maybe HF really is talking to her and she isn’t listening. I don’t know if she’s waiting for an engraved instruction on a tablet or what is going on but I find it hard to understand. She doesn’t say she has a feeling like HF is telling her she should have more. She just thinks that is the default position - having as many children as you are capable of having. Then somehow God tells you when you are done I guess. I don’t get that at all.
Comment #19 by bandanamomJanuary 19th, 2008 at 8:01 pmShe keeps saying she wishes she was done, but HF hasn’t told her she’s finished yet.
At the rate she’s going, she might get to hear him tell her in person.
I may be in the Mormon minority, but I never once prayed about the number of kids I should have or when I should have them. Probably because I was too afraid that I wouldn’t like the answer. So I just got pregnant when I felt it was a good thing to do at the time. That may have been the Holy Spirit speaking to me without invitation, but all I know is that once I got pregnant with #4, I knew beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt-with-every-fiber-of-my-being that I was DONE and there was no way I was asking for permission to quit. If God wants me to have more, he’s going to have to send an angel, but I can’t promise that will be persuasive, either.
Comment #20 by madhousewifeJanuary 19th, 2008 at 9:50 pmmadhousewife, you sound just like me! I was the same way, I never wanted a big family, but I didn’t want a little one either. I kept having kids and then when I was expecting #4 I knew I was done beyond a shadow of a doubt, so much so that I got a tubal ligation! Ahhhh….freeeeeeedom!!! I don’t have any regrets and feel that we are done! I am so happy with my four beautiful kids and will enjoy raising them as sane as I can. My mother had 13 kids and God bless her I couldn’t even imagine doing that!
Comment #21 by LeiGulJanuary 19th, 2008 at 10:13 pmI have three all spaced about 2 years apart and when number 3 was about one I began praying for number four fully expecting and wanting a go ahead and recieved a very strong no. This was about 2 years ago. At first I was quite alarmed. But, as time has gone on I have seen the great wisdom in it. I did not know what I needed when I needed but I feel so blessed. I still want a few more, and think it is probable(I’m not yet 30), but I am now at peace with the Lords path for my family. “one step enough for me”
Comment #22 by JillMJanuary 19th, 2008 at 11:02 pmFunny you should bring this up. This has been heavy on my mind lately as I am prego with #3. I actually have no pressure from anyone but myself. My hubby is done, but I don’t know if I am. There is something about getting used to an odd number and not going for #4. But thank you for the reminder that I need to listen to the spirit and leave it up to the Lord, not me or others. I need to be at peace right now with 3, and if the day comes, then maybe another baby will be ready to come later.
Comment #23 by Make and TakesJanuary 20th, 2008 at 12:29 amI grew up with parents who broke out in hives when they heard about someone “getting fixed”. They swear it’s “of the devil” and anyone who does it unnecessarily is considered one of eunichs from the scriptures who can’t reproduce in the hereafter…I know it sounds completely crazy, but it was “doctrine” a generation ago–at least where my parents grew up.
Comment #24 by GotmilkJanuary 20th, 2008 at 12:51 amI’m planning to send my hubby off to get a vasectomy soon, and I can’t help but worry a little bit about his eternal salvation…Poor guy.
I also remember a conversation with my dad a couple years back when I was feeling like four kids was enough. He wondered aloud whether or not I understood the Plan of Salvation, because if I did, I’d have as many kids as I could physically bear. Since he’s the father of 16, at least he wasn’t a hypocrite.
Anyone else have such weirdness growing up or am I alone on this one?
Wow Gotmilk, that’s rough. I wouldn’t worry about your salvation or your husbands.
Comment #25 by LHJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:12 amThe only pressure I feel is from myself because I LOVED growing up in a big family. We had so much fun and are still all so close. I absolutely love it. But I’ve learned that some people (me) may not be cut out to be moms of big families. I’m really trying to figure out what’s right for us, but we’ll figure it out one child at a time. I’m glad I read this post because it is a good reminder that the Lord has a plan and it’s not the same for everyone.
“Anyone else have such weirdness growing up or am I alone on this one?”
Sorry . . . unable to answer . . . still laughing too hard about the eunuch theory . . . never heard it before, but heard other craziness . . . still laughing too hard . . . about to pass o
Comment #26 by RayJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:13 amWhoa! got Milk! That is crazy. I grew up in a family of 12, but my mother says everyone has a limit, for some people it’s one. Not to mention my mother was always VERY open about her birthcontrol which she always used when not wanting another one quite yet, and tubal ligation when she had her 12, which she always wanted.
Comment #27 by mmilesJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:42 am“We women of the church can only be second class citizens if we let ourselves. Be it one or sixteen kids, it’s a number the Lord will help you determine…”
What if the number is zero?
Comment #28 by PhouchgJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:55 amMan! I was out most of the day and missed a lot of the good discussion here but here’s my two cents about some of the comments.
Phouchg, I do believe that every woman can and will have the blessing of being a mother, whether in this life or the next. I know of some marriages where children are a REALLY bad idea and the wives have opted not to bring children into the relationship. But at some point - in this life or the next - all righteous women can have the blessing of kids. Obviously I don’t know the final answer on this, but I can’t imagine God not expecting a woman to bear children - it’s one of the best ways she can fulfill her potential. Any other ideas about this? I know that many women have mental or physical issues in this life that make it so they either have to adopt or not have kids but I hope that these issues will be resolved when we are resurrected and made perfect.
I was wondering about the question raised, “if the Lord tells you to stop and you have more is it a sin?” I can’t imagine anyone would be punished for having kids above what the Lord had intended, but I do think that the Lord knows best for you and your children and you can never go wrong following his counsel.
I really like hearing everyone’s comments about how they determined their family size. The comment about the vasectomy is a good one. I know TONS of Mormons think it’s a sin to get vasectomys/tubal ligations. Does the church have any official stance on this?
Great discussion everyone. Keep up the good work with your families!
Comment #29 by HollywoodJanuary 20th, 2008 at 3:18 amBut there is contradiction on this within current church leaders. Hinckley says that, but Beck says “Women who know bear children” and waxes poetic about how the desire for more children is an essential component of the ideal and that the children they have are their jewels for eternity. There was a strong implication that the more the better in her remarks. And that leaves many women who feel they are done with two children feeling that they must not be right in feeling as they do.
Comment #30 by RNJanuary 20th, 2008 at 3:20 amI really, really don’t want to start yet another debate about Pres. Beck’s talk, I just want to point out that there are confusing messages out there on this topic, even in the current advice from current leaders! Add in some of the older advice, such as Kimball’s “To the Mothers in Zion” pamphlet, and it gets even muddier.
And it bothers me that Pres. Hinckley feels the need to “put the smack down” when anyone struggles with this.
Thanks much for this post! I read the post, but only skimmed the comments so if I’m repetitive thereto, I apologize.
I’m a convert of over 13 years. I quickly learned that the church gives us GUIDELINES, not ultimatums or a Policies & Procedures manual!
Couples should communicate and pray for guidance, absolutely. They should also give their children OPTIONS, because that is what the gospel is all about: free agency. Don’t let your children grow up thinking having 10 babies starting at 18 is the only way to go. Let them know that’s only one of many options. If they still choose to be “only” a wife and mother, that’s a wonderful and noble choice - but an informed one as well.
I now relinquish the soapbox to someone else.
Comment #31 by NicholeJanuary 20th, 2008 at 4:30 amI loved hearing about this reminder from the Prophet, thanks for bringing it to my attention. There were 4 of us growing up, and I always felt the need to tell people that there were “just 4.” Now that I have 2, 4 seems like a lot, haha. I always thought I wanted 4 as well. I never understood why people had so many children, the 8,10,12 children, until I had 1. THAT was when I understood why people had large families. Although I wasn’t raised with the idea of a large family, there was a point where if my husband had been amenable, I would have said, “As many as we can get.” Thankfully, the Lord is wise, and my husband talked me down.
I am set on at least 3, if we can have 4 that would be wonderful (but it will take me and the Lord to convince my husband.)
Comment #32 by AzúcarJanuary 20th, 2008 at 4:33 amp.s. I *never* heard of the apocryphal prohibition on birth control until I was in college, and I grew up LDS–mostly in Utah Valley. Sure, I saw some large families that were a blast, but I saw other families struggling to care for their quiverful. I guess I’m saying that I never equated a multitude of children with righteousness; it was a non-issue.
Comment #33 by AzúcarJanuary 20th, 2008 at 4:37 amMy mom says that at 10 she was feeling overwhelmed, prayed and felt very certain that the Lord was very satisfied with her sacrifice and it was just fine by him to stop, but then she decided she still wanted 2 more. I guess she didn’t feel overwhelmed enough!
Comment #34 by mmilesJanuary 20th, 2008 at 7:00 amWhile I’m not LDS, I don’t think it’s terrible that peer pressure/church leadership exerts some pressure on young couples to have babies; plenty of other denominations are rapidly aging into irrelevance. I would imagine the LDS leadership is aware of this.
My grandmother’s church has been preaching “free choice” in the matter of family planning for many decades. There are no longer any young families in her congregation, as most people will not have large families in the absence of some sort of strong social pull to do so.
Sad to see an entire church comprised of fewer grey heads/more empty seats with each passing year.
Add in some inevitable intergenerational drift, and you’ve just created a geriatric church in the space of 60 years. Shrug. After a church ages past a certain point, demographically, good luck breathing it back into vigor.
Really, any religious organization that will remain strong in the face of changing demographics is either going to have to go all-out on recruitment (and face the cultural and linguistic and ethnic clashes this will tend to produce) or be unapologetically, ferociously pro-natalist.
Wishy-washy notions about free choice in family planning hasn’t washed so well for many Protestant denominations, not when our “choices” are so often influenced by financial and social pressures from outside the organization.
JMO, of course.
Comment #35 by Breeder OutsiderJanuary 20th, 2008 at 7:05 amI have some friends who, during the 3+ years of them struggling with infertility, would tell people who had the nerve to ask them why they didn’t have kids yet that they were “saving up for a boat”, just to see the look on their faces.
I’ve never felt the pressure to have lots and lots of kids. But that may be because I have always wanted a large family, so I may not have recognized it. I do get pressure in the opposite way or snarky little comments about how I must not know how getting pregnant works, or aren’t I done yet, or don’t I know anything about birth control? I think there are obnoxious, overbearing, nosy people who will bother you no matter what choice you make. I love this reminder, especially from the prophet, that we need to rely on the wisdom of our Heavenly Father and what he has in store for us. I also like the comment above that mentioned making a decision and bringing it to the Lord.
Comment #36 by JessicaJanuary 20th, 2008 at 7:12 amI think this is also a good reminder to give each other a little slack. Instead of assuming that the woman in your ward with lots of kids is mindlessly caving to the pressure to procreate or that the lady with one or two or zero children is letting her selfishness dictate her family size, we should remember that most of us have thoughtfully and prayerfully been guided in our family choices, and it is really none of our business anyway. Sheesh.
Jab, go check the talk - it says “Bear Children”.
Comment #37 by RNJanuary 20th, 2008 at 7:38 amAnd Cheryl, it’s great that YOU don’t feel any dissonance, but I know I do. I also know I am not alone in this feeling.
Reason #8,623 of why I love President Hinckley. I can’t tell you how many people I have talked to who have commented at their content and happiness at a certain number of kids and then decided to have one more because they didn’t think they were miserable enough yet. It’s never been an approach that resonated with me. And ironically, it’s the ones who claim that “charity never faileth” who tend to be the most judgmental on the topic. Go figure.
Comment #38 by VernJanuary 20th, 2008 at 8:21 amOh, and Jessica? Do I know you? Because my husband and I used to say that we were “saving for a boat” for our first three years of married life.
Comment #39 by VernJanuary 20th, 2008 at 8:41 amI think this all boils down to you and your spouse listening to the Spirit, not individuals in your life (family members, judgemental people from your ward, etc) who want to give you their unsolicited opinion.
For most of us, when we ask our Father in Heaven what he wants us to do, we will get the answer that he *does* want us to somehow have children whether that be by having them ourselves or by adoption.
My husband and I have been plodding through fertility treatments for about 7 yrs now altogether. We did get our gorgeous twins in ‘04, and I am so grateful for them.
But the fertility treatments - Let me tell you, not fun. About as much fun as repeatedly banging your head against a brick wall. To add to the madness of co$t, hormones and emotional crud, we live out in the sticks and have to drive 5 hrs round trip to get the darned ultrasounds a few times a week for a couple weeks a month.
And yet, we still feel there might just be one more out there for us. So, we keep going. And praying. And now our kids are old enough to say their little prayers, too. It might not work this time around, but it might, and that is worth the sacrifice.
For me, it has been something of a refining process. It has taught me how to really listen to the Spirit, and that the message may change over time.
Comment #40 by BridgetJanuary 20th, 2008 at 9:04 amMy mom had nine, not because she wanted them, but because she felt she HAD to. It was what she had been taught. And she was overwhelmed and emotionally unable to parent 9 children very well. She did it out of a sense of religious duty. And we all sort of suffered for it.She tried her best, but she will tell you herself that she was not well suited to parenting nine children, and neither was my father.
I can’t tell you how many times in our childhood when we were arguing about not being able to do something or other my mom would say something like “What do you want me to do - there are NINE of you!” and one of the kids would say, “If it’s so hard, then why did you HAVE nine children?” And my mom would always yell, “Who do you want me to send back?!” tee hee
Comment #41 by SueJanuary 20th, 2008 at 9:38 amWhen it comes to church doctrine, what the current Prophet says is what we follow. That’s the whole point of continuing revelation, from what I understand. If it weren’t, we’d still be practicing polygamy. So, even though Pres. Kimball’s pamphlet and the advice of the dangers of b.c. in the 50’s (when it actually WAS dangerous) sound outrageous to us, we can rest assured that our current Prophet has said, well…what he said at this stake conference.
RN-
As far as Sister Beck’s talk versus President Hinckley? I don’t think there was a contradiction. She didn’t say “a woman who knows has as many children as she can”. She just simply said that they have children. President Hinckley said the same thing (see Hollywood’s post above). Of course women are expected to have children! And President Hinckley made no apology for it. Why Sister Beck has to is beyond me.
Breeder Outsider-
Comment #42 by cherylJanuary 20th, 2008 at 9:41 amThat’s a really interesting story. I know our church has children for other reasons than “recruitment.” But still, I really liked your story!
Outside Breeder, it is nice to hear a supporting outsider opinion on this =)
I have struggled with this on and off since I was 16 and being told by doctors that I would have trouble conceiving. After marriage I wanted 6, then I had #3 who was a terror of a boy and I wanted to STOP. I decided to wait till I was emotionally ready to ask the Lord before I took any drastic measures. The Lord must not have wanted me to wait because I had #4 while on B.C. I have to say that the Lord knew what he was doing because she ended up being the balm that healed the wounds caused by #3 (who is a darling now that he is older). Still, after #4 I really wanted to be done. I kept asking my husband to ask the Lord with me so that we could come to a decision but my husband was dragging his feet. I finally told him he had a year to pray and decide with me and then I would take the answer into my own hands… we prayed, fasted, went to the temple and received the same answer at the same time. I’m now expecting #5 and, while not giddy, I am feeling a happy peace and can’t wait to meet this new soul.
My hardest part is knowing what to say to all the people who are constantly asking if we are going to have more. I live in a low-member area and so I am careful about who I share my “Waiting to hear from the Lord” technique. I finally learned to just turn the tables and ask, in reply, “I don’t know, how many do you think I should have?” They always change the subject after that =)
Comment #43 by LizzyJanuary 20th, 2008 at 9:56 amI come from a family of 10. When my parents married, my mom wanted 4 and my dad wanted 6. They prayed about each one, and had three healthy boys, and then three premature girls. The third girl died just six days old and my mom was DONE. A couple years later my dad came home from a priesthood meeting and told my mom he felt impressed that they need to have more - more children who would serve missions, specifically. They prayed about it together and then had 2 more boys… the ME… and then my little sister! There’s your 10 (we always joke that they had mom’s 4 first, and then dad’s 6.)Obviously I’m so glad they listened to the Lord on this, or I wouldn’t have made the cut. But growing up I sort of took that to mean that Heavenly Father would always want you to have MORE… but now as I am struggling with just my two, I’m beginning to realize how much I need to make this a matter of counsel with my husband and Heavenly Father, rather than rely on other external schools of thought.
Comment #44 by LynnetteJanuary 20th, 2008 at 10:01 amRN - didn’t Sister Beck say, “Women who know DESIRE children?” That’s a whole lot different than BEAR children. I think you can have 0 or 1 or 20, whatever is right for you, as long as you have the desire for children, which to me means that you realize and understand that children are an important part of this life. I guess I think that she’s combating the idea that children are only a time suck and a drain on our resources and have no redeeming qualities that would make it worth it to make sacrifices to have them. I think she’d be the first person to agree that we should take our emotional, physical, mental, financial, spiritual, etc states into consideration. BUT, I think she would counsel us (as would Pres. Hinckley) to make sure that we are not limiting numbers for selfish reasons.
Comment #45 by jabJanuary 20th, 2008 at 10:25 amA few years back we had a RS lesson, that I thought it was ill served, a sister, who had not had children yet, but was pregnant really bugging everyone to have lots of kids. Funny she had horrible morning sickness through the entire pregnancy, then again 18 months later, when she decided to have #2 and now she’s done LOL. I think the decision on how many children to have and birth control, vascetomies ect are up to the husband, wife and the lord and no one else.
I think the church puts a bit of pressure to actually have children. You actually don’t see very often, couples in the church that choose not to have children. I see nothing wrong with the church putting a bit of pressure on, and even that, has the exceptions. A gal in the same ward (parially why I was annoyed with the talk by the gal above) has choosen not to have children because her DH mental state is so unstable she doesn’t dare take the risk. She knows she would pretty much be a single mom, and doesn’t feel that is the right thing to do, she hopes that some day DH mental state improves, and that maybe then they can consider it, but right now, she can’t, and I see nothing wrong with that either.
I know for us, we both feel that 4 is probably are magic #. Much more and I’m near going to push 40. That being said, I’ve had two preemies so far, with # 2 being medically fragile (and not from being preemie) so with #3 on the way, I hope that this one is well, cause I don’t think I can handle another one that is so ill.
Comment #46 by Sarah IJanuary 20th, 2008 at 11:04 amRN-
I’m sorry you feel that dissonance (and I’m confused as to why your comment is clear up there and not down here in order. Kind of weird…anyway…). But trying to make those of us that don’t feel the dissonance feel bad because we actually liked Beck’s talk doesn’t really help your position, especially when comparing it to Pres. Hinckley. And I’m still confused as to what you meant by this:
“And it bothers me that Pres. Hinckley feels the need to “put the smack down” when anyone struggles with this.”
His “smack down” (I know, not your words) was to not apologize for the doctrine on families, but to also ensure us that how and when to have children was up to the couple. I thought that sounded nice –he’s not condemning anyone, just not apologizing for teaching what he’s been asked to teach.
Comment #47 by cherylJanuary 20th, 2008 at 11:13 amWe have to pay anywhere between $5000-$25000 to have a baby, because we struggle with infertility. Can you imagine summoning the willingness to bear the children Heavenly Father wants you to when the cost is that high? Not only on the pocketbook, but also on the body and emotions? (Those who’ve been through IVF know what the drugs can do to your body.) Fortunately, we are in a position to do so.
I didn’t want to do In Vitro to have a baby. I was satisfied with the one child we had (conceived also through infertility treatments). The cost seemed too high. But when we were researching the issue, visiting doctors to simply interview and find out what the process entailed, I had undeniable impressions that it was what we were supposed to do.
Through infertility treatments, being pregnant with twins, and all that comes after that, it sometimes baffles my mind that Heavenly Father would actually WANT me to go through all that to bear children. But my Hubby gave me a blessing along the way stating that Heavenly Father was pleased with my willingness to submit to His will by doing all this.
I NEVER thought it would come to all that - the money and effort and sanity that was spent. But I KNOW that it was Heavenly Father’s will for us to have these children. We have 3 now, and although Hubby has always wanted a large family, I believe that we are finished. I have such an amazing sense of ‘completeness.’ It’s not like I had a revelation that said, “You’re done.” It just feels that way, and I am satisfied that with ‘only’ 3 children, we have complied with Heavenly Father’s command to multiply, at least. I, personally, believe that ‘replenishing’ is a whole other topic. And I know that our efforts are acceptable to Him.
ONLY 3 CHILDREN! Seems crazy, I know! What kind of Mormons are we!? I’ve never worried about how other people would view us only having 3, or even one! (By myself, I would have been completely satisfied with only one!) But I HAVE always tried to bring into the world the ones who should be here - in our particular family. And I feel like we’ve done that.
Thanks for this topic! It’s been interesting…
Comment #48 by AllysonJanuary 20th, 2008 at 11:31 amI think President Hinckley has been giving this talk for about 20 years, seriously. I think I remember him reading that exact same letter in General Conference in the 1980’s, and several times since then. What amazes me is that he still feels the need to give it.
Comment #49 by EJanuary 20th, 2008 at 12:46 pmWhat amazes me is people seem to think we have a lot of control over how many children we have. I mean, you can plan all you want, but often you end up surprised by the results.
We always planned on having two and adopting two. We ended up having three and adopting none.
Comment #50 by Susan MJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:02 pmA friend had 8 kids and number 8 was a surprise. They had decided they were done.
But both parents always felt that their son was actually originally intended for another family who decided against having him. They felt they were his chance to come to earth!
Comment #51 by LisaJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:15 pmBwahahaahA! So I’m laughing at this 8 months preggo. Hee hee. I wasn’t supposed to get pregnant. 2 forms of birth control and 8 months later I have trouble sitting still and I’m laughing at all of this. I think it’s between you, your husband and God. Hee hee. and sometimes God knows more than you do… appparently.
Comment #52 by NestleJanuary 20th, 2008 at 1:25 pmI very much appreciate this message from President Hinckley (and all of the comments here). I am currently a stepmother to two and for now, it is physically impossible for us to have children because of a decision that my husband was asked to make in his previous marriage. Often I am saddened by this and wonder what I have done because I very much want to have my own children. I know that God wanted me to be in these girls’ lives, not only to bring the Gospel to them, but also to nurture them, a mother was what they did not have. But I wonder if there are any babies in store for me. I sure hope so.
Comment #53 by MaddisonJanuary 20th, 2008 at 4:09 pmBut the biggest thing that I am taking away from this post and the comments herein, is that Heavenly Father has a plan for all of us and we must ask what it is to know. Thank you for the post.
I, like the 2 readers earlier in the comments, haven’t really ever prayed about how many children to have. I have however prayed that my husband would agree to more children. My husband is not a member but I am. I now have 3 children, 15, 9, 4. I really liked having one child. I had to work at the time and was able to enlist the help of my MIL and Grandmother to help with baby sitting. I didn’t want to have anymore children if I had to work. When my son turned 5 we realized I didn’t need to work anymore. I then “talked” my husband into “one” more child. I got pregnant right away with my daughter. I thought this is perfect a boy and a girl. I’m done. That made my husband happy. Four years later, I really felt that I needed to have another baby. Never prayed about it though. I actually had to bargain with my husband to get pregnant again. I ended up pregnant right away and got a dog(the bargain). #3 has been a handful and often wonder why I would have done this to myself? Now I realize I was supposed to have him, he does have a sweet spirit that comes out every now and then. I am though, at peace(well maybe not quite peace, but you know what I mean) with 3 children. My husband had put his foot down and said no more than 3 and got a vasectomy. So far I still haven’t felt impressed that there were more spirits waiting. But I know what we have right now is good for my sanity. I figure if you were intended to have more you’ll have them no matter what. Both my dad and uncle had vasectomys and both my mom(6 kids) and aunt(5 kids) went on to have one more child 4 years after. So for the long post:)
Comment #54 by ValerieJanuary 20th, 2008 at 5:00 pmMaddison -
Adoption?
Comment #55 by BridgetJanuary 20th, 2008 at 5:29 pmWow, THANK YOU for posting on this. Pres Hinkley’s advice is so wonderful. I love hearing everyone’s experience.
Comment #56 by KateJanuary 20th, 2008 at 5:33 pmI prayed when I first got married because my husband, first in a double digit family, REALLY wanted kids and I just didn’t feel sure. I started my prayer with a sigh of resignation, like here we go, I already know what the answer is going to be.
But then I was surprised, almost shocked to feel very clearly that it was a NO, now is not the time. I am still SO grateful for that direction. My husband and I needed time. We went through some serious life events that we didn’t forsee and it was tough enough without a baby.
A year later I found myself “accidently” pregnant. I was surprised and nervous but happy. Two months later I miscarried which was a painful experience.
I spent another year or two pretty happy childless despite peer pressure. Then last August I started to feel like it was time. We tried and got pregnant right away. Three months later I lost the pregnancy. Now I feel totally confused. I know the answer is to pray and figure things out but I still feel so hurt that I don’t even want to think about it. Any time I do I just cry and cry.
Advice?
You do have 2 children. Just not on this earth right now. I’m sorry, I can’t say I know how you feel. I have never experienced a miscarriage. Remember, it’s in His time.
Comment #57 by ValerieJanuary 20th, 2008 at 5:40 pmThe question was posed , “What is the church’s position on this?” Since my husband is in the bishopric and has the newest version of the Church Handbook, he looked it up for me. I won’t quote it here because it’s not suppsed to be quoted, but the church “Strongly Discourages” surgical sterilization except in two basic cases: Medical conditions, and mental stability and accountability (i.e if someone is not mentally well enough to be accountable for their actions).
Having said that, I have two and desperately want #3. But it’s not happening. At least not nearly as fast as the first two. And we know without a doubt that it’s time for another. I guess the Lord knows when it will happen.
We also go on the idea that when it’s time to have another one, we will know. Well, it’s been time for awhile. We have felt for awhile that there is at least one more. We know of a “special” on that is waiting for us. We also wanted a big family. I came from one and LOVE it! BUT…I get very sick when I’m preggers. Two and a half months bed rest kind of sick. It has made us reevaluate how many we want, and right now, there is no definitive answer. We feel that when we are done, we will know.
Comment #58 by LisaJanuary 20th, 2008 at 6:55 pmKate, I wish I could offer more, but all I can say is, “Hang in there. Understanding will come eventually.” Miscarriage is devastating. Period.
You might want to consider adoption. See how you feel about that.
Comment #59 by RayJanuary 20th, 2008 at 6:59 pmWe don’t always understand immediately why we receive the promptings we do. My dh and I felt strongly prompted just 3 weeks after our marriage that it was time to have a baby. Well, seven long years and much heartache later, we finally got one. The spirit moves us to do things for reasons known often only unto the Lord…usually it’s as much for personal growth for ourselves as for anything else. Has anybody ever heard that story of the man who was asked by the Lord to push against a rock wall. So he pushed, and he pushed and he pushed–for years–but the wall never budged an inch. Finally, in desperation, he begged the Lord to know what was wrong, why the wall would not move. The Lord responded that he was never asked to move the wall, just to push it. He then pointed out to the man the strong muscles and physical development he had gained from pushing the wall all those years.
It’s the same with some of these things we are instructed to do in regards to having families. The fact that what we expected to happen is not happening does not mean that the Lord’s instruction was wrong, or that we haven’t had enough faith or worked hard enough.
Family planning is such an interesting topic. I second the poster who said that we often wrongly assume that we (and others) are actually in control of that planning when we really are not. We can take responsibility for our choices, yet we can’t always control the outcomes. I do like to see people take responsibility, though. I think it’s perfectly fine for those people who choose to have as many children as they physically can, as long as they acknowledge that it really is their choice to do so, and not just blame it on the Lord or the Church if they really didn’t want to do that. I do also think, though, that there are times the Lord surprises us and asks us to stretch beyond what we see as our ability to stretch, whether that be having more or fewer children than we think we can handle.
Just one comment about adoption, since it’s been mentioned and I’ve adopted two children–it’s often a very difficult journey in and of itself. It’s a wonderful experience, but just as challenging as the traditional way of getting children here.
Comment #60 by eljeeJanuary 20th, 2008 at 8:13 pmKate,
Miscarriage is the one of the hardest things many of us have ever dealt with. I am mourning for you tonight, for myself, and for all of the many families that have endured this trial. You would be surprised to know how many women have had a similar experience.
You will find your own way to get through it. Journaling helped me. Crying helped, too. For me it seemed like I had to get all the tears out before I could even think about moving forward.
(Hugs)
Comment #61 by BridgetJanuary 20th, 2008 at 8:18 pmKate, my first pregnancy that I had been eagerly waiting for for four years was a miscarriage as well. I was so confused that my rightous desire to be a mother would be thwarted. I really had no way to understand the situation besides praying long and hard. These are the answers I received: I would always have an acute awareness of the true gift of children. They are not a given. It’s an utter miracle that any of them ever make it to earth and when I did have children, I would not take the blessing of motherhood for granted. But more importantly, having a miscarriage taught me the value of sisterhood. The most lasting outcome of my miscarriage is my ability to empathize with other women going through that kind of pain. I think it is so important to let other women know what you’ve been through and you’ll find that in many, many unexpected cases, you’ll open the door to a common experience and a deep bonding experience between you and an unlikely woman. Truly, our sorrows can bring us together and make us stronger. Trite, but true.
Keep up the faith. Heavenly Father loves you and will prepare you as well he knows how to make you a fantastic mother someday.
Comment #62 by HollywoodJanuary 20th, 2008 at 8:56 pmHere is why I am in favor of “having the most kids you can”. Someone please tell me if I’m all wrong.
Its simply this: No matter how many kids you have, each one will be individually precious to you. So any child you could have had that you didn’t is a profound loss. Any child that you do have, is obviously worth almost ANY sacrifice, so factors such as sane living, affording it, being sick etc, pale in comparison to the great gift you receive in having that child.
Now of course, I realize you can’t take it to extremes. I am an advocate of having the most you reasonably can, not the most you can period. But I think the biggest consideration shouldn’t be “what do we have to give up to have another child?”, it should be “who are we giving up if we don’t have another child?”
In a few years we will get our house cleaned up, get some sleep, forget how sick we were, etc, etc, and all that will remain of this experience is a son or daughter so eternally precious to us that we would do anything for them. And who knows but that child might be the one that visits mom every day for the long lonely years of her widowhood. The one that says, hey, don’t take her to a rest home, I want her! Who knows?
Seriously, gals, tell me where I’m wrong. (but remember I already said I don’t believe in going to extremes) I just believe any child you could have had and didn’t is your own tremendous loss.
Comment #63 by Just MeJanuary 21st, 2008 at 4:13 amI do get confused about some of the reasoning and logic that we use when discussing this topic. If we ascribe unplanned or unexpected pregnancies to Heavenly Father’s will then shouldn’t we also ascribe a couple’s infertility to be His will also?
I remember the news conference of the couple that ended up with eight children as they artificially implanted eight eggs that all took. When a reporter asked why they didn’t winnow down that number in the uterus, the evangelical mother expressed horror and stated that it was not God’s will. I remember me and my co-workers scratching our heads and saying “No, God’s will was for you to have none at all but you already disregarded that part so how can you be certain he wants you to have all eight?”
Comment #64 by michaelJanuary 21st, 2008 at 4:55 amIt all boils down to this….life is what happens while we’re busy planning.
DH and I assumed that we would have more of a choice regarding the number of kids we’d have, and the health with which to accomplish those plans. Unfortunately, I was injured during the birth of our third, and may never be healthy enough to raise any more children. It’s not just about being pregnant, which could result in my being paralyzed. I don’t currently enjoy the health to daily care for any more children.
I am so grateful for the experiences of being pregnant and bearing children that I’ve had. I have prayed long and hard, and have come to a certain amount of peace with the fact that I may never be pregnant again. I do struggle a little more with the idea that I may never have the health I want to raise my boys the way I envisioned. But DH and I, along with our boys, have learned so much throughout my health struggles. Our boys are definately more independent and helpful because they’ve had to be, and I am grateful for that.
I loved the story related above about the man pushing against the wall, I can identify with his feelings.
Sometimes we are given challenges to give us the opportunity to be obedient, and/or to strengthen us. I wouldn’t have chosen to grow closer to my DH and sons through poor health, but maybe it was the only way. Thanks to Hollywood for the post, and thanks to Pres. Hinckley for his inspired words.
Comment #65 by Mother of the Wild BoysJanuary 21st, 2008 at 5:50 ammichael-
Yes, God’s will is a part of it. But He has also given us agency and a brain. I don’t believe for a second that the woman with 8 children was somehow going against God’s will. I mean, did you ask her if she prayed before getting the implantation done? Do you think they made that decision lightly? There have been several times couples have done invitro, having prayed about it, and then were blessed with children. They are the only ones who can answer whether it is God’s will or not.
Just Me-
Comment #66 by cherylJanuary 21st, 2008 at 5:50 amNo, I get your point. I understand it, too. But it takes away the point of President Hinckley’s counsel –to make it a matter of sincere prayer. As some have already said, some women do want more, but the Lord tells them “No”.
Michael, I think you might be confusing your stories. I don’t know of any couple that has had octuplets. You may be thinking of the case of the McCaughey septuplets, which as far as I know is the most multiples a woman has carried (that have lived). In that case, they did not artificially implant any embryos. They did not do IVF at all. They did artificial insemination after using powerful fertility drugs. Just before the insemination, when they did an ultrasound to see how many eggs were available to be fertilized, only three or four mature follicles were visible. I can’t remember the exact number, because it’s been years since I read the book. But anyway, those other babies really did seem to appear out of nowhere.
I don’t even know what to say to the assertion that infertility means it’s God’s will that a couple not have children. Obviously I don’t believe that AT ALL. Infertility is a mortal condition, just like many other mortal conditions. Fertility is as well. That’s why I think someone having as many children as physically possible is not necessarily God’s will, but just part of that person’s mortal condition, though I think people, fertile and infertile, will always be blessed for being willing to have children–I really liked a lot of what Just Me had to say on that.
The commandment to multiply and replenish applies to all, fertile and infertile. Obviously it’s up to each individual couple to determine how many and the specifics of when, how, etc. As an infertile woman, I felt it was my responsibility to do whatever I felt prompted to do in order to be a mother. What that is differs from family to family–we did not do high tech fertility treatments because we received answers that our children were to come through adoption. But I do believe that fertility treatments are gifts from God given to help couples–of course with such blessings comes a responsibility to use the technology wisely and follow the spirit.
Comment #67 by eljeeJanuary 21st, 2008 at 6:08 amI’m glad President Hinckley made this announcement as well. I’m more in Jessica’s boat. I’m preg. with #4 and I’ve had mine all 2 yrs. apart and yes I do know how that happens, thanks
. So I’ve seen more of the other pressure of people thinking we’re crazy. I’m not sure how many more children we’ll have, but I’ve really wanted each of my children. I think that’s what distresses me about people not wanting any children at all: just a lack of understanding I guess. I know in some circumstances there are medical or mental reasons to not have children, but I just feel sad that they are missing out on a wonderful thing. Not only is it amazing to see how each one comes to earth as a completely different package of personality and abilities, but raising children completely changes you. I’ve developed in all kinds of ways that I could never have imagined when I was a teenager. People who choose not to be parents miss out on that (and I am NOT talking about infertility). Otherwise, I agree that the decision of how many to have is completely between the couple and the Lord.
Comment #68 by snow whiteJanuary 21st, 2008 at 7:00 amI like the point that people have made that control over our fertility is often an illusion. That is one thing that I have learned after having two children, and I think it’s sometimes hard for people to realize. In our modern society we tend to assume that we can control things and make everything “perfect”, but conception, pregnancy, and childbirth fight against these notions. Just about every woman I know has had some disappointment in this area. Unexpected pregnancy, infertility, difficult childbirth, pregnancy complications, etc.
Comment #69 by FoxyJJanuary 21st, 2008 at 8:01 amTracy M -
You can get this basic talk in pamphlet form at the Distribution Center. My DH has it - let me know if you need the title and I can get it when he gets home tonight. Pres. Hinckley did give this talk (more or less) back in the 80s.
It is always so sad to me how harshly we judge each other regarding “family planning” - whether or not to have kids, when to have kids, how many, how far apart, etc. Bottom line is that it is between a husband and wife and the Lord and there are so many different avenues to get there.
If someone does not want kids at all and chooses not to have any, isn’t that better than having a child being neglected and unloved?
Our two precious children came through IVF and only those who have climbed that mountain can understand this process. I have heard every snarky judgment and comment over the years and just when I feel a little self-righteous about not judging in these situations I find myself irritated at the mother at church with 25 kids (yes, an exaggeration) she can’t keep under control/adequately feed and clothe, etc. and I feel resentful. Therefore I am just as guilty.
What I have learned is this…when someone is pregnant and tells me I ask her how she feels about it and I respond in kind (Wow, congrats! or You can do it and the Lord will help you, etc.). We never know what goes on in the quiet recesses of another woman’s heart and we need to support each other rather than bring out the claws.
Lastly (sorry so long), I am grateful for a prophet who listens to his “flock” and repeats things as needed. I am also grateful to Sister Beck for sharing her thoughts as well. Instead of finding what seems wrong to individual people, look for what is right for you. It takes a lot more effort to do that than to take immeditate offense and lick our wounds in the corner - I know this because I am a pro at taking offense in the world of family planning.
Comment #70 by RubiaJanuary 21st, 2008 at 8:24 amI love all the discussion so far. I am currently pregnant with my second child, (spaced 2 years after my first), and am planning on taking a break for a while after this one. I definitely want more children, but I know that right now I am not ready for them.
I have also thought about the idea that Just Me brought up, that every child you have is precious to you and so ones you don’t have are a loss. I have had hard pregnancies and do not feel ready to have a third child, and so if I did get pregnant unexpectedly during my “break,” honestly I would be a little depressed about it, but I do know that I would love that child and never wish him/her away. So, in that sense, I agree with Just Me, that having more children is worth it, even if it is a struggle.
But on the other hand, I strongly feel like I will be a better mother if I give myself the chance to take a break now, and if later I stop when I feel like I am done, even if I “could” have more. Yes, I would love and appreciate any additional children individually, but would I be able to offer them each the attention, support and example that I would like to provide as a mother? In this way, I really feel like it’s not best to have as many as you can, but rather, as many as you feel best.
Comment #71 by aprilJanuary 21st, 2008 at 8:30 amWhen my hubby and I were engaged we had “The Talk” about how many kids to have. I said 3 and he said 6! I told him to go find another girl cause no way would I have 6 kids!
Thankfully, we compromised on 4.
We never prayed about the situation but I’ve had spiritual moments confirming the fact that we need to have 4. We have 3 children right now, and we’re thinking of getting pregnant with the last one soon.
Great subject!
Comment #72 by mommyto3January 21st, 2008 at 8:54 amWhat a great discussion!! It has been very interesting for me to see the way people react or judge when you talk to them about this topic. I miscarried my second pregnancy. Many times when I told someone of the miscarriage, I was really surprised when they asked if we planned to get pregnant. I don’t know if they thought it would be better that we lost the baby if it hadn’t been planned. We were ready for another child, but even if we weren’t, I don’t think, for me a miscarriage would have been a relief. I do think that God has a very specific plan for how things will happen, we are just along for the ride and try to make the best decisions for us at the time. In hindsight, I think my miscarriage had to happen, because I never wanted more than three kids, but my patriarchal blessing talks about how my children would be great men and women. I think if I hadn’t miscarried, this little person probably wouldn’t have made it to our eartly family. I believe we’ll be able to raise it after we’re done here. Just my opinion.
Comment #73 by AngieJanuary 21st, 2008 at 9:06 amI appreciate the comment from the person who stated the church’s official stance in the latest handbook about strongly discouraging surgery. I have known a lot of couples who felt really strongly that they were done having kids, and then after a vasectomy/tubal ligation wished that they could have had another one a few years later when they were more rested and settled in life.
I know that when I was in an apartment with a baby and a toddler I thought I was going to go crazy most days (I was probably a candidate for anti-depressants but never figured that out back then). Now that I have older kids to help and we have a big house with a playroom in the basement, having five kids doesn’t seem like such a big deal anymore. They still make messes and require a lot of work (physically and emotionally, but I am so glad that I didn’t make any firm decisions based on my sanity back in my early days of motherhood. I think that revelation is an ongoing thing and that Heavenly Father will direct us day by day. I am most likely done having kids, but it is nice to know that if we feel inspired, we haven’t cut any options out of our life. It would be a tremendous load to carry if I felt inspired to have another baby and had already made a medical decision that prevented me from being able to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Comment #74 by RachelJanuary 21st, 2008 at 10:41 amMy experience with my miscarriage (after my third baby and before my fourth)was that the baby that I miscarried early in the first trimester was my #4 baby. I know that everyones experience and feelings are different. I felt that the baby I miscarried was and is my #4 child. I do feel that when she was developing something went wrong and wasn’t developing right was miscarried, then came back to me a month later and is now my baby girl! That is my feeling. I know that miscarriage was awful and I feel worse about the D&C that I got than the Tubal I got after my #4 was born.
My BIL is a Bishop and he told me (not knowing that I had a tubal) that surgical BC is strongly discouraged. I didn’t know that when we made this decision, but I felt good about it then and I still do. I believe it was right for us. It was a hard decision, but one I am VERY happy with.
I think women need to start sharing with each other instead of judging.
Comment #75 by LeiGulJanuary 21st, 2008 at 10:58 amI love reading these thoughts and reading this site for that reason! It gives me insight and understanding to things I never gave much thought to.
This has been so fascinating to read! We thought we were done after four, but we now have five, and couldn’t imagine our lives without him.
I agree so much with LeiGul that we’ve all got to stop judging each other. I met a woman last year who had three grown children, and as we talked about her kids, she apologized for only having three!! Can you imagine it? I quickly retorted to her that having ONE kid was tough work, let alone the three great children she raised, so she should feel content and peace about it.
I just felt so badly that she still carried guilt about it after all these years. Why do we do this to ourselves and to each other?
Comment #76 by JustineJanuary 21st, 2008 at 11:16 amBridget:
Thank you for your comment. It is not something that I will rule out; I just really want to try having biological children first - even though there are a lot of hoops to make it through before I can even really consider it.
As I enjoy this great discussion, I am reminded of Sister Beck’s First Counselor - isn’t she an unmarried woman without children? Highly worthy of her calling, and yet, not a wife or mother here on earth. Obviously the Church doesn’t frown upon women / couples that decide to not have children, or of course for those who cannot. Thus, I don’t think we should beat ourselves - or others - up in this matter of “if” and / or “how many.” The decision / work of having children is all so sacred, a true gift from God, that we mustn’t be Doubting Thomases. God knows what’s best for all, including what’s best for the children that do and don’t come here to earth.
Comment #77 by MaddisonJanuary 21st, 2008 at 12:04 pmThat is my feeling on the matter at least.
“We never know what goes on in the quiet recesses of another woman’s heart and we need to support each other rather than bring out the claws.”
Well said. My hub and I have been married for 8 years. Last year, just after we started grad school, we found out unexpectedly that I was pregnant. We plan absolutely everything, so it was a bit of a let down that the ONE time we weren’t careful, we got pregnant.
Truthfully, it was a bit of a let down that it wasn’t planned, but I agree with previous commenters that the question “were you trying?” is totally stupid. I think we both, and really me especially, felt an instant bond. So, a week later when we found out it was an ectopic (non-viable) pregnancy, it was very hard.
I immersed myself in all things baby - something I had never had an interest in before. I let myself have about 2 weeks to do that, figuring it’s what I would have done if I was still pregnant. Then began the long process of healing. I went off the reservation and was sullen and baby hungry and strange for about 6 months. I was laying down baby ultimatums everywhere. My husband wondered where his wife had gone.
Healing does happen, though. Now that I’m again sane, we are able to have serious conversations and figure out what Heavenly Father wants us to do.
Comment #78 by NicholeJanuary 21st, 2008 at 1:25 pmI know its PC-ish, but I just wanted to chime in that its not the Church’s stance we’re talking about here- Pres. Hinckley has made that clear… but its the PEOPLE of the Church who are… making some of us feel badly about this very private matter. Its tough to be on the receiving end of someone else’s interpretation of gospel doctrine. But regardless of what side of the fence we are on, we can all hold our heads high knowing that we are exercising our agency.
I will say that I frequently have been asked how many, do we know how this happens, etc. and I have felt and still feel the need to apologize and defend my choices for having more than just a few kids.
The worst comment I ever got was from a classmate who learned I was preggers during our last semester of grad school- and scheduled to deliver days are the commencement ceremony. Because of timing and other matters, I was very private during this pregnancy, especially at school. On the very last day, my classmate, in front of the entire class, asked me if my pregnancy was an accident or if it was planned. My response: Well, I AM married, which means I am sexually active!
I clearly didn’t answer the question to her liking because she felt the need to rephrase her inquiry, to which I did not respond. -Mother of Four
Comment #79 by hayngrl101January 21st, 2008 at 2:15 pmI don’t remember ever deciding how many children to have. If I had been unhealthy or in a bad situation, I might have felt a need to ask questions and get answers. As it was, I did not use birth control and welcomed 4 children into our family. A fifth baby died. I was 43 when #5 died and I always hoped to have one more. I guess I was just too old, because it never happened. My mind sometimes works in strange ways. I didn’t go through menopause until age 56 and ridiculous as it may sound, I nurtured a small hope up until that time that I would be blessed with a late life baby.
Comment #80 by maryJanuary 21st, 2008 at 2:45 pmI was totally fulfilled and done with 2 children. Couldn’t be happier. I was one of 10 and I originally didn’t want children at all, so I’d come a long way in understanding family and making the decision to have children.
Comment #81 by mo mommyJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 6:47 amDue to a string of circumstances that could almost be described as a comedy of errors, we now have a third wonderful child. We were having a financially and emotionally challenging time in our lives and adding another child only made that more difficult. I’m so glad she’s here and we love her to pieces, she brings a wonderful light and feeling of joy into our home. It would have been great to struggle through with fewer challenges, but asking if we would’ve done it differently isn’t an option. We didn’t and here we are. Suck it up and drive on.
For the record, we decided on a permanent solution to make sure were finished having biological children. Sure, some people really regret that decision, but I have met very few in my time. I have always wished I could provide a home to an older child in need of fostering or adoption, so if we should ever want another child then that is the route we’ll choose.
Can we go back to the surgical BC question? MOST of my LDS girlfriends have sent their hubbies off to have it taken care of and, once the decision is made and is final, don’t appear to think about it again. This is actually news to me to hear that the church actually does “strongly discourage” surgical birth control. I thought that was just one of those ideas that passes down through the generations as so-called doctrine. In these more “enlightened” times, I’ve come to assume that it’s the kind of decision that’s between me, my spouse, and God.
Comment #82 by GotmilkJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 8:22 amOnce people decide they’re done, it seems to be the next step most people take nowadays–within the church. I think a lot of people would be shocked to hear that it really is “strongly discouraged”. What does that mean, exactly? Don’t do it? Ever? Except under those couple of circumstances?
Gotmilk-
Vasectomies are not surgical and can be reversed.
I think the church is referring to sterlizing permanently (tubal ligations, hysterectomies, etc.). But I could be wrong.
[Man, did I spell any of that right? I’m not even sure.]
Comment #83 by cherylJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 8:37 amGotmilk- Surgical BC hasn’t been condemned (or ’strongly discouraged’) over the pulpit at conference. It isn’t in the temple recommend interview, nor is it really mentioned at all in any of the lesson materials used in Sunday meetings. We are only taught that children are a blessing, and that decisions about childbearing are between a couple and the Lord. Since the GHI isn’t circulated among the membership (and is rather closely guarded) I would think that means that the information/advice in it is not on the level of general counsel, equally applicable to all members of the church.
In other words I think the advice in the handbook, especially in this instance is advice for the couple that is unsure enough to be asking the bishop about it. In which case the best idea is probably for them to not make any permanent decisions.
Comment #84 by StarfoxyJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 8:52 amUmmm, actually vasectomies are surgical, whether or not the incision method is used. They are reversable in some cases.
Incidentally, I had a friend (not LDS) who had a fifth child not long after her husband had the operation.
Tubal ligation is also surgical and can also be reversed in some cases.
With all the risks and side effects of a hysterectomy, it would be a very drastic type of birth control. I doubt reputable doctors would recommend it for that purpose.
As a final note (responding to gotmilk), people have been considering themselves more “enlightened” than their ancestors for thousands of years. What makes us more enlightened? The fact that we don’t need to have a lot of children in order to help run our farms? The fact that we have more alternatives than our ancestors? The fact that we have more information available to us? The fact that we have modern medical technology? I think this is simply more choice, not more “light.”
Comment #85 by ResearcherJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 amKate, I also had a miscarriage–between my first and my second kids. It was unexpectedly painful for me–and I think it was probably a year before I could talk about it much without crying. It really helped me just to know that I wasn’t alone and to have people validate that it is a real loss and that grieving is not only appropriate but very necessary in order to move on. For a while, none of it made any sense–all I knew from my prayers was that Heavenly Father loved me. Don’t give up the seeking–the understanding of you particular situation will come, and in the meantime, He will help you heal.
I’m coming to this discussion a little late, but I have really enjoyed all the comments. It is nice to be able to air divergent views in a respectful forumn. I echo all the people who have said we shouldn’t judge others–it can be so hurtful, especially when we are all just trying to do our best and live the commandments to the best of our understanding and inspiration. I think that our loving acceptance of people needs to go both ways–it seems like I hear a lot of people judging other people’s choices to have big families in a pretty vicious way (i.e. “that’s just crazy” “how can anyone possibly take care of that many kids?”). It also makes me sad when I hear people using flimsy excuses (okay, sorry–that is a judgmental phrase) for not having more kids (e.g. “I finally got my body back–I don’t want to have to get pregnant again and ruin it”). Maybe these are just my experiences, or my sensitivity to the issue now that I have stepped over the line (and then some) with my five kids. But it really does seem to me like our church culture has changed in terms of how we talk about family planning–some of those changes are good (i.e. not judging people with smaller families), some are maybe not so good (i.e. feeling justified in making family planning decisions for shallow reasons).
I think there are eternal principles that should govern how we as individuals make decisions about having more children. Obviously, we need to seek the spirit. We also need to understand how to find our own resting place between helping ourselves to grow/develop/fulfil the measure of our creation in both the specific and broadest senses AND making sure that we don’t “run faster than we have strength.” This seems particularly important when you are talking about a decision that affects more than just yourself–women are called to be mothers in the nurturing/spiritual sense, which implies a responsibility far greater than just bearing a child physically. Children deserve parents who are present and available and able to nurture them and love them.
As an aside, it is really funny and sometimes intensely irritating how people think that your family size is their business. Sometimes I have witty retorts, other times I just shake my head inwardly at their stupidity. My favorite comeback these days is to tell people that I am having a large family in order to prop up the Social Security system in the coming years
.
Erin
Comment #86 by ErinJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 11:51 amGood point, Researcher. “Enlightened” was a poor choice of words. I was mostly referring to all the new information we now have available to us. The church I’m raising children in is, in a lot of ways, different from the church my mom raised her children in when it comes to women, our bodies, and our child bearing options. You’re right–we simply have more choices.
Comment #87 by GotmilkJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 12:03 pmI agree with Erin in that people seem to have no qualms whatsoever about insulting a big family. Shock and awe everywhere you go. Geesh people, we’ve heard it all, we expect it, and we deal with it as graciously as we’re able. I imagine this is how mothers of handicapped children feel, always dreading people’s initial reactions.
My favorite are the people who light up and say something like, “that’s great!” or “Oh, I bet that’s fun!” Because it is, thank you.
Comment #88 by candaceJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 12:54 pmCandace, I totally agree. I have 9 siblings. And in high school, and even later when I was an adult at work. People would always ask if my parents understood how BC worked, my reply was always, “yes and to bad yours didn’t!”
Comment #89 by moddyJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 12:59 pmCandace-
Your comment reminds me of a story my aunt told me once. My aunt had 8 children, and met a woman in my grandmother’s apartment complex who only had a son, a man who subsequently died in a car accident. When the woman asked my aunt how many children she had, and got the answer, the woman said, “That’s wonderful. You will never be alone. And if one of them dies, you will always have the others to comfort you.”
Macabre, maybe, but true.
Comment #90 by Heather O.January 22nd, 2008 at 3:43 pmJust wondering, do your hubbies mind when you post about such personal issues? I think that mine would die, but he is really a private person. It cuts down on what I can blog about.
Comment #91 by anonymousJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 6:29 pmMy poor hubby is used to me being an open blogger. I started blogging over two years ago and I was VERY limited in what my family was comfortable with me blogging about. But after seeing how helpful these frank and open discussions can be in a respectful forum, he’s mellowed out. Very rarely he will still ask me to edit something for privacy’s sake and I always do. I try and run these types of things by him BEFORE posting them though. But no, he generally doesn’t mind.
Personally, I think topics like these need to be less taboo. We can respect the topic but still discuss it. So many people are just too embarrassed to say anything or ask questions and end up in very bad situations. My two cents.
Comment #92 by HollywoodJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 6:37 pmAs kindly as I can put this, if any husband has a hard time with his wife participating in a forum like this - where women share each others’ burdens and practice true Christian charity and loving sisterhood - he needs to hit his knees and repent. The power of this forum is exactly that they are personal and intimate and accepting and strengthening - and help women realize they aren’t alone in both their triumphs and their trials.
Be grateful I stuck to the kindly version.
Comment #93 by RayJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 6:42 pmSeriously, I love this discussion. And I totally think # of kids is between hubby,self, and Lord. And I totally think that there are so many lessons that can be drawn from Pres. Hinkley’s simple statement.
#1. Determine your own happiness. Don’t let your divinely appointed role paint you into a corner that depresses you. I get so sick of women complaining about being ‘barefoot and pregnant’ in the kitchen. Get happy about life and about the mission we are to fulfill.
#2. I think its interesting that we all take this to instantly mean that we are off the hook and can ‘be done’. I don’t think he said that. In fact, I think when we take this and other statements like it to mean that we don’t need to have large families we are already spinning Pres Hinckley’s council our way. We just assume that becuase he says the number of children we have isn’t up to popular opinion of the church that he is saying its okay to have small families. It’s not. It IS okay to have the size of family that you feel is right for your family. It’s okay to have your size of family. It requires prayer. And it sounds like most of us do that, but I’m just sayin.
And I think that we are all kidding ourselves if we think that we aren’t influenced by popular culture in family size issues. If 8 kids was the social norm you all know we would have more.
Having said all that, we are at 2 and may only have 1 more (fertility issues). And that might have to be enough for us. And I think there is NOTHING wrong with only having 2 kids and certainly every woman has her max.
I also think raising a kids today is so different that was even for my parents. Everything costs so much more, proprety, school stuff, etc. and kids are facing MUCH more trying challenges that maybe require more attention than a mother of 8 can give. It would be nice to think that we can shield our kids from the world and recreate the large family environment we grew up with, but it just is harder and harder with the constant barage of popular media and culture streaming into our lives and homes.
All in all, I’m saying that I agree with what everyone has said and if we truly believe Pres Hinckley we’ll not limit what we are capable of.
Comment #94 by CarrieJanuary 22nd, 2008 at 7:05 pmI was just reading Carrie’s comment and realized one thing that has been left out of this discussion.
Seat belt laws.
That’s seriously one of the reasons I don’t want more than five kids (although six could fit in a Pilot or Odyssey). I don’t want to drive one of those huge top-heavy white vans. You don’t want me driving one of those vans either; I’m not that good at backing up.
Our parents (assuming that the other bloggers are also in our 20s and 30s and our parents are nearing retirement age) could just load all the kids in the back of any size car they wanted. We have to have a seatbelt for each child and car seats or boosters for anyone under age eight.
Our ancestors could just stick everyone in the back of the wagon or make the kids walk. Or simply not travel.
Another huge issue in family planning is housing. Housing is usually the single largest item in the family budget and, having looked at actual statistics from when my parents and in-laws were starting their families, housing back then was so much cheaper (inflation adjusted) than it is now-a-days.
This is not to say it cannot be done, but the house my grandparents were able to afford on a single mid-range salary would take two mid-range salaries and a good chunk of existing home equity to afford now. Seriously. I just looked it up on Zillow.
I’m not arguing for small families. I’m not arguing for large families either. I’m just saying that some of the considerations are different than they were even a generation ago.
Comment #95 by ResearcherJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 4:48 amIt seems like people used to be a lot less demanding when it came to housing though. My mother-in-law was raised as one of nine children in a small three bedroom house, and I don’t think that was so unusual back then.
Comment #96 by KarlaJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 5:29 amRay–
It’s not the forum my husband wouldn’t support, it’s the posting of HIS personal revelations on sensitive issues. I’m glad that Hollywood has a supportive husband in that regard but I don’t fault mine AT ALL for wanting to keep our private matters private. I think that Hollywood’s openness is what draws readers to her and helps women connect and help each other. And yes, I’m glad that you stuck to the kindly version. I thought that I was just asking a simple question. Sorry to distract from the main discussion. I think it has been extremely helpful and uplifting.
Comment #97 by anonymousJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 5:36 amOkay, so here’s my question. I have two beautiful children, very active, and very fun, but they wear me out most of the time. There are other issues besides being tired that I won’t go into, but suffice it to say, that I’m happy with two, and I don’t think having three would INCREASE my happiness, however much I may love that #3. (Not that being happy is all that matters…) Some people’s comments on here seem to suggest that my wanting more children or not deprnds on how “able” I am to have more, mentally, phisically (and by that, I usually take it to mean if you have the energy, not if you can or cannot actually bear children, but maybe that is the wrong perspective) and spiritually.
So if I feel that I have made a decision that no, I feel like I can’t have more, and I pray about it and recieve a confirmation that I can stop at two, then aren’t I “not as good” as others who are capapble of having more? I’m not saying I feel judged by others necissarily, but shouldn’t I take that to mean that since I’m not feeling up to it, that my faith in being “healed” or my faith in having my burdens lifted on those things is lacking?
Most of the time, I just feel like there must be something wrong with me if I don’t want a gaggle of kids. and the truth is, neither me or my hubby want any more. But isn’t “want” a selfish term? Every time I have prayed about this I feel nothing, not peace, but not stupor either. Just nothing. It’s very confusing and distressing to me.
I know it’s a catch 22. If you pray for strength and don’t recieve it, isn’t it your lack of faith that is the culprit, not Heavenly Father? If you don’t think you can have more kids, but the church is telling you that you should have a desire to have children, but doesn’t say when enough is enough, then doesn’t that bring it back to: pray for enough strength to have as many as possible because of the doctrine about spirits that need to receive a body? And if you don’t get that strength, then you weren’t praying hard enough, or didn’t have enough faith? If our faith makes us whole through Christ, and we follow commandments through our faithfulness, then shouldn’t it be our own “fault” for not feeling up to having more kids?
It just seems to go around in circles. Does this confuse or perturb anyone else? I’d be grateful for some perpective. (This is an awesome discussion, BTW).
Comment #98 by mellocelloJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 7:51 amLike Erin, in the past I’ve been frustrated with people’s seemingly shallow reasons not to have more children or to have “too many” children. I’m learning, though, that many of us don’t share our personal experiences in casual places–especially if they hurt. If someone is impertinent enough to question my family planning, especially if I don’t know them well, I’m not about to start explaining about the way the Lord is behind it all. I’m not going to share my precious experiences with my children before they come or the pain and desperation some of those choices have brought. So I say something shallow to move the conversation somewhere else. Some of us prefer to hurt and struggle in private rather than airing it all out in public. I am learning not to be frustrated with others’ choices. Most of us need a lot more love and understanding and a lot less condemnation.
And those mothers who need to just be happy and enjoy their children probably want nothing more than to do just that.
I have appreciated all the different comments, especially those who have been willing to share their experiences. I also appreciate those who have asked us to be kinder to each other as we interact in life.
Comment #99 by RachelJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 amResearcher had a good point about the seat belt laws. There are external constraints that affect family size. I served a mission in a country with a serious housing shortage. If the family lives in a 600 sq ft studio apt and has no option to go anywhere else, then 1 kid is probably all they can raise. Or a couple gets married, can’t find housing, and ends up living in one room of mom’s two-room apt for more than 10 years. You can’t shoehorn very many kids into a situation like that.
I also agree with Rachel - if someone gives you a shallow reason for their family size choices, it might be because they don’t feel like baring their soul at that moment, not because their reasons really are shallow.
Comment #100 by MelindaJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 8:48 amNo, mellocello, you’re not the only one feeling confused. And it seems that very few others have patience and understanding about that, including Pres. Hinckley with his repeating of this talk that (as the original poster here puts it) “Puts the smack down” saying women should not be confused.
Comment #101 by RNJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 8:55 amYes, the decision is between you & the Lord, but sometimes the answers you get conflict with things you hear are a necessary part of righteousness. That results in congnitive dissonance and confusion, which is once again unacceptable.
If such decisions really ARE between the couple & the Lord, why are we not hearing “A woman who knows consults her Heavenly Father in making decisions about her family size and follows in faith” or some similar thing from our leaders, instead of a once size fits all “Unless you desire/bear more children, you’re not the kind of woman you should be.” approach.
It’s hard to follow leaders when there is conflict like that.
Mellocello, I think that your struggle is one that a lot of women deal with. My advice would be to enjoy your children as if they were going to be your only two, and somewhere down the road maybe you will feel inspired to have more, or maybe you won’t. Maybe you are just too tired right now to get a clear answer, but in a few years you will know more clearly. It is hard not to worry about it when it is such an important decision.
Comment #102 by AWJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 9:40 ammellocello–
Comment #103 by snow whiteJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 amI think if you are feeling too tired and overwhelmed with your kids, just wait awhile. There are many seasons in child development, and some are easier than others. In the interest of full disclosure, I will just say I am not *overly fond* of my children during the 2-4 yr. old stage lol. But that passes and they get more interesting. Some people aren’t especially fond of the baby stage, it just varies. I’ve had a period after the birth of each child where I felt overwhelmed and didn’t want any more, but for me, when they are a lttle over a year old, I start feeling like I could handle another. For some folks, they feel that way at the 3 or 5 year point, or not at all. It just depends on you, your hubby and the kids you already have. I think that’s why they don’t recommend permanent sterilization, because at some point, when you’re rested and your kids are more self-sufficient, you might get that baby-hunger again
Thanks for the perspective.
RN–I am not sure I understand your POV about lack of patience on the part of others, but I agree that there is some conflicting advice and counsel from leaders, and maybe that conflicting counsel helps us to get on our knees and have the faith it takes to find out some things for our selves. I am really trying to see a positive in this aspect of my dilemma. Can you tell?
AW–Thank you so much for your advice to enjoy the two children I have as if they were going to be my only two. It really did help me today to not worry so much about if I’m supposed to have more. Thanks
Snow White– Thanks for your comments also. That is a good point about the permenent sterilazation. I am known for changing my mind about other things…maybe this I’ll change my mind about too sometime down the road. I do feel like the children I have and the person I am are very different from everyone else. Not becuase I’m special or anything, but just becuase we are ALL different from eachother. We ALL have certain needs and special circumstances that Heavenly Father knows about, right? And maybe just because we have those special circumstances, doesn’t mean thay are a handicap to having more children. The problems I encounter with raising my children might be a downside to me, but maybe in someway, they are teaching me something, or strengthening me somehow, so they are not things that need to be “healed” after all. Maybe? Hmmm…
I have spent my whole life looking very different from everyone else, and being LDS has made me feel more accepted than I ever felt anywhere before I became a member, so I am gratelful for that. Now that I am in “the mommy club” I am just trying to fight off my urge to constantly compare myself to everyone else in the # of kids aspect too. Since I actually fit in now, I sort of think me wanting to not have more kids might put a damper on my fitting in. But since I am an intelligent and responsible person, I know that I should not have more kids just to fit in, or feel like I am comparable to other moms I know in the way of how much they “can handle” vs. how much I “can handle.” That has to be a bad reason to have kids. I feel like if I want another child, I should really, really, really want one. And right now, I am not feeling that. I do however feel that I really, really, really love the ones I have, with all my heart, and maybe the best mother I can be involves my working hard to nurture my lot, instead of working hard to figure out how many kids my lot should be made up of.
I just have to say again how much this discussion has helped me. I am so gratelful for all of your opinions and your shared experiences.
Comment #104 by mellocelloJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 6:59 pmAnother issue raised by mellocello: is your amount of faithfulness/character reflected in how many children you have?
Heck no. It just so happens that many women are called to other tasks. What would we do without the thousands of female teachers in the schools? Or the childless aunties who help raise our children? Or caring social workers who work with conflicted families. Some women’s full calling is in the home and other women are called to split their time in their homes and in society. I have so much respect for those women who are unable to devote themselves to raising a family and instead use the opportunity to serve others in their communities.
The scripture is “by their fruits ye shall know them,” and not “and by the size of their mini-van ye shall know them.”
Comment #105 by HollywoodJanuary 23rd, 2008 at 7:24 pmI think maybe this is a “grass is always greener” issue. My standard answer to “how many kids do you plan on having” is “there were 6 kids in my family, and 10 in my hubby’s. So, somewhere around there.” (we have 3 currently under 4 years old) The reaction to this statement of mine is usually raised eyebrows and no response or a short “oh”. I feel like people are sizing me up. They’re thinking “she thinks she can handle 10 kids? We’ll just see about that!” I do NOT think ANY of them are thinking that I’m more righteous, or that I think I’m more righteous because of this decision. I think they think I’m crazy. And maybe I am.
Comment #106 by NancyJanuary 24th, 2008 at 3:23 amMaybe I’ll have 10 kids. Maybe I’ll have 8. Maybe I’ll only get 3 - you never know what’s around the next corner. All I know is that my hubby and I both, independently and when talked and prayed about together, felt like we should try for a large family. We’ll stop when we’re done. That’s all we know.
I think there is a huge correlation between the willingness to bear children and your personal righteousness. Think about it. Since motherhood is the “highest holiest service a woman….etc. etc.” than wanting to spend your life on something less is, well, something less.
Careers and other things will have their seasons. But no success in life can compensate for failure in the home. All the service we can give in society isn’t worthwhile if it comes from shortchanging motherhood. Good, better, best as Elder Oaks would say.
Women who know desire to bear children, (according to Sister Beck) and (according to President Hinckley) they can work out the specifics with their husband and the Lord. Perfectly complementary guidelines for the most important work we’ll ever do –within the walls of our own home.
Boyd K Packer had a story about a couple distraught because they couldn’t have children and he told them they were very, very blessed. Why? “Because you want them.”
We will be judged according to our works and our desires. I think that is why desire is such a big theme in the scriptures. And desire is such an inward thing, known only to the Lord. Someone could have a ton of kids and have wrong desires, someone could appear to be way off but have right desires.
We won’t know each other’s desires, but we need to know our own desires and align them with God’s will for us. We’ll be judged on our works and our desires, in a judgment that is merciful, fair, and frighteningly thorough.
Comment #107 by candaceJanuary 24th, 2008 at 4:43 amMellocello,
Your most recent post got me thinking. Sometimes I think we want all the answers for the future all at one time, and it’s OK to just sit back and enjoy what we have right now. Our first two children came with a great deal of effort (they are adopted). My daughter is 18 months old. It was a huge challenge adjusting to two children. When she was just under a year, I worried constantly about whether to have another one. Now, I did and do feel that there are a couple more children that will be coming to us. But I felt a lot of pressure to get started quickly as I’m in my late 30’s and getting children here generally is no easy task for us. But I also did not feel at all ready for another baby. I struggled a lot with these feelings. Finally, in a blessing, I was told the one piece of counsel that made it all better–that the Spirit would let me know when it was time for another child, and I did not need to worry about it. That was so freeing! If I wasn’t feeling prompted at that time, then there was no reason to worry about the future. When the time came, the desire would be placed in my heart and I would know that it was time. Now that my dd is 18 months old, we are starting to think of putting in our adoption papers in, and I can think about having another baby with feelings of joy and anticipation, not just thinking about how much sleep I would be losing. I guess my point is that it’s OK to take it one child at a time and to not have the entire future mapped out. We don’t even have to have a plan of when the “next one” is coming–we can trust that if and when the time is right, the Spirit will let us know.
Comment #108 by eljeeJanuary 24th, 2008 at 4:49 amCandice–”I think there is a huge correlation between the willingness to bear children and your personal righteousness.”
I can see your point, but where does it end? Once you have six, ten, thirteen, twenty? okay, probably it should end at 20
If I choose to have more kids becuase I desire them, and then I have them, should I still be desiring to have more and more and more and more? We can only bear children for a short season in our lives, so after that season is over, or after we feel that we are done, is it rightous *enough* to simply have the desire to have more, say, in the after life? I really am trying to see where we are supposed to draw the line. I mean, I can see that your point would be very appropriate for those who desire to have no children at all. But what about mothers who have had one or two, and now their desire is fulfilled? And now they are desiring to nuture and care for those children that they have. Is that not just as rightous as the desire to bear children? It’s sort of like your argument makes it a one size fits all thing, where everyone should be desirous to have as many children as possible, but for some people, the “possible” is not justified enough in other’s eyes. Like it’s okay to not have a lot of kids if you have a rough time being preggers, or if you have a hard time conceiving, or some other physical hurdles. But just becuase you enjoy life with a smaller family, and you think your capacity for stress, emotional and physical, would be beyond bursting with a larger family, that is not a good enough reason to have a small family? It’s like I said before: what at one time I considered weaknesses or handicaps for my ablility to cope with what I have now, may actually be there for a reason. What that reason is, I’m not sure yet. But I have prayed about my weaknesses and my desire to bear children, and also my hubby’s desire to have more, and things are just not changing right now. (Not that they won’t change in the future…) So to you, does that mean I’m not as rightous as someone who does have the desire to have more kids? I’m not trying to “start anything” here, just so you know. I sincerely think this is an excelent topic and a very engaging dialogue. I really want to know what you think. Like I said, I’m looking for perspective. My mind is wide open
Comment #109 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 5:22 amI should add to my post, that after reading it over again, I sure do STILL seem to be overly concerned with how I compare to others. Hrrrumph. Well, I still would like to know your opinions. I guess that means that I just won’t put a lot of stock into them, and try to stick to my goal of NOT caring so much about what others think. Teehee
Comment #110 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 7:48 ammellocello,
I was not speaking to your situation directly. I’m sure you can manage that much better than I can.
I was just pointing out that desires are not neutral things over which we have no control. Ultimately, we should want what the Lord wants for us. We can pray for righteous desires to know and do his will. I don’t think he will always make his will known to a person who doesn’t desire to follow it. We can pray for good desires where none exist. I do it every month for visiting teaching, hehe. And it works!
I was also trying to counter the idea that if motherhood is not your cup of tea, go be a teacher, a social worker or a childless auntie. –Yeah, but only if you are certain your desires are pure and that is the Lord’s will for you. Being blessed according to our desires could be a condemnation.
Comment #111 by candaceJanuary 24th, 2008 at 8:04 amMy, how very judgemental of you Candace. You really look around and draw conclusions about personal righteousness based on the number of children women bear?
Comment #112 by RNJanuary 24th, 2008 at 8:16 amNo, she doesn’t. She’s saying desiring children is a righteous desire. And that every situation is different.
Comment #113 by The WizJanuary 24th, 2008 at 8:17 amI think you misunderstood my meaning, Candace - I was trying to say that while the Lord does desire some women to have large families and/or stay at home all day, he may have a different plan for other women. Some women, even though they desire children, may be asked of the Lord to serve on this earth in a different way. It’s not that these people have put other things ahead of the righteous desire of motherhood, but just that the Lord has found that this is not the right time for them. I agree that the “desire to bear children” is a good indicator of faith but I also think that our desires and the Lord’s desires can be two different things. Or course the Lord will eventually let all righteous women who desire to have children have that opportunity. But the timing isn’t our choice - it’s the Lords.
Comment #114 by HollywoodJanuary 24th, 2008 at 8:45 amRachel–
That is an excellent point about how people don’t usually want to share the very private and sometimes emotionally painful reasons behind their family size decisions, and so try to deflect other people’s nosiness with a flippant remark–I’ve been known to do it myself when people ask the classic “How many children are you planning to HAVE??” Just for the record–I operate on a don’t ask don’t tell policy with that issue–even with my sister
! It is actually one of my pet peeves that people have asked me since baby #2 if I was “done”, as though it is any of their business. If people want to divulge, I will listen, but I really think it isn’t my place to pry or assume or judge about how many kids they have or want to have because I would love it so much if other people gave me the same courtesy
. Oh well–probably not gonna happen…And really, I’m not mean about it or anything. It’s just one of those wishes of mine that would be fulfilled if we lived in a Utopian world
.
Comment #115 by ErinJanuary 24th, 2008 at 8:56 amWow! 112 comments before someone started huffing about someone else being judgmental. That’s got to be a MMM record. It was fun while it lasted.
Comment #116 by candaceJanuary 24th, 2008 at 9:08 amI’ve known hundreds of women. About two of them have admitted to enjoying pregnancy. The rest either don’t like it or else hate it or have significant complications.
With technology much better than that available to our mothers and grandmothers, the social expectation to have more than 2.1 children only exists in certain groups. So in order to have more than 2.1 children you have to ignore the expectations that society is placing upon you. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it is in your face. When we lived in SoCal sometimes it seemed like everywhere I went people commented on the fact that I was pregnant and already had kids (!). (Like I didn’t realize it!?!)
So in order to have more than the social norm number of children (which is what our grandmothers did, and our mothers probably did if they lived inside the Mormon corridor) we have to ignore our own drive for self preservation and often ignore intense social and financial pressures.
(Yes, some women get “baby hungry.” I’ve seen that. Some mothers in our 2.1 children neighborhood have told me privately that they would like more children but it just isn’t going to happen for them.)
The decision about having children is very complicated. It’s sure more complicated than many decisions we have to make in life.
Pressure is being applied to us on a number of sides (this is a quick list)
THE PRESSURE TO NOT HAVE KIDS:
* social expectations to have a career and few or no kids
* snide remarks from strangers on the street
* health concerns
* concerns about our figure and other aspects of our health
* the pressure of managing a household often with little or no help
* the pressure of meeting all the different and very complex needs of children who are not in the least like each other even if they come from the exact same gene pool
POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE PRESSURES:
* husband’s wishes and desires
* grandparents want/don’t want more grandkids
* our own experience growing up in a family
* your expectations of life
* your physical and mental health
* your husband’s physical and mental health and ability to provide
PRESSURE TO HAVE KIDS:
* social expectation from other church members
* pseudo doctrine about family size (i.e. Saturday’s Warriors) including the idea that righteousness = a large family
* historical church teachings on family planning
* our ideas about how consistent certain types of birth control are with the purpose of life and the sanctity of the human body
* current church teachings (Sister Beck that women should desire children, President Hinckley that the decision is between you, your husband and the Lord)
I think that the church has a very vital role in pressing back and reminding us that decisions on family size should not be left up to society. We should make our family decisions ourselves and if we’re not in a position of teaching the doctrine about the purpose of life and families, I can’t see many reasons why the topic should come up. Family size is really between you, your husband and the Lord.
I think we all know how to make a decision. Think about it. Study it out. Pray about it. Sometimes we need to schedule quiet time; temple worship is a good way to get the personal revelation necessary to make these decisions.
And in the ideal situation, both wife and husband should go through the process of seeking revelation, separately and together.
I will say that the answers I’ve received haven’t always been the ones I’ve wanted, but my understanding of the plan of salvation can help me reconcile my desires and expectations. [I will note that my family is larger than some of yours and smaller than others. But (except for short periods of time on especially bad days) there is not one of my children that I would send back.]
With how complex this decision is, how could we ever judge any one else or even question them on their family size?
Comment #117 by ResearcherJanuary 24th, 2008 at 9:15 amI am still unclear about whether or not our desire to have children should be continual or not. I desired to have my two before I got pregnant with them, and I know that was in line with God’s will. I just don’t have that desire anymore. Is it supposed to be an ongoing desire in order to be in line with our church’s standard for rightousness?
Comment #118 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 9:57 amMaybe our “desire” is something we should work on if we truly don’t want any children, but in other cases, maybe “desire” is part of spiritual promptings if our other desires are righteous. If we don’t desire kids because it will ruin our figure, that’s probably not in line with a righteous way of thinking. But if we are doing everything else in life to be worthy of the spirit, maybe our desires are part of Heavenly Father’s way of letting us know when to have the next one or when to stop. I have a great friend who had 7 kids, and she said that she had very strong desires to have each child until she had #7, and then her “desire” just suddenly went away. She had always wanted 12, so it’s not like she had reached a predetermined number so the idea of desiring more went away on that account. Also, Heavenly Father does not want us to be “slothful servants” who need to be commanded in all things. He has given us the spirit to guide us, and the ability to seek answers through the spirit. I think that a predetermined number of kids to have can be a very harmful thing (whether it is self imposed, family pressure, social pressure). I know that I have always wanted 6 kids, and now that I am realizing that I probably can’t handle that many, I feel like I am falling short or have failed in some way. But I also know a lot of people who reach their predetermined number and then are completely unwilling to listen for spiritual promptings about having more children. I wish that we all could really just go one at a time and listen to the spirit without any other expectation about numbers or family size.
Comment #119 by RWJanuary 24th, 2008 at 10:32 ammellocello,
I don’t have a handy GA quote to back me up here
, but it seems to me that the core doctrine (as many other people have posted) is to see having children as a desirable, important and worthy thing to do in your life and that if you are in a position to have children, to have some and to consult the Lord as to the number. If having the continual, aching desire to bear children is a standard of personal righteousness throughout the life span, it seems like that would be cruelly consigning all menopausal women and women who can’t have children or can’t have more children to some serious misery.
I think the important thing in family planning is whether or not your desires about when/how many/when to stop having children align with the Lord’s desires for you–and my personal desires are not always a perfect barometer of the Lord’s desires for me. Other times, what He wants is not what I want. Then it gets interesting–kind of like it has every time I have started to get a prompting to get pregnant again and I’ve said heavenward, “You’ve got to be kidding! Have you seen what our family is like down here?? Have you seen how I haven’t vaccumed the basement for months? How would having a baby be a good idea?”
I think that if you are doing your best to stay close to the Lord and if you are willing to ask what He wants for you, if He wants you to have more children He will let you know AND make your desires change AND increase your capacity. If that doesn’t happen, feel at peace with your life and your family and know that you are doing His will–there is such power in that. Anyway, having kids in this world at all is a supreme act of courage and takes so much dedication. We are amazing, brave women doing an important work, whether we have one child or 20.
Comment #120 by ErinJanuary 24th, 2008 at 11:11 amMy husband and I are one on few subjects, but when it came to the number of children we wanted we were as united as united gets. We wanted 5. And five we had. Girl. Boy. Girl. Boy. Girl. Boy. What are the odds? (50/50, I know) Two years apart. Stopping right on schedule as I turned 35. We took long term, high efficacy, near permanent measures to prevent further pregnancy.
Fast forward three and a half years…you know where this is going…and I discovered yet another key difference between me and Mary, the mother of the son of God. Mary, upon discovering her surprise pregnancy says, “Behold the handmaiden of the Lord.” Me? I spent the next six months waving my hands irritably in the air, saying “Ninety-nine point eight percent! You have GOT to be kidding me!” (I don’t think that’s what the scriptures mean when they suggest we pray constantly.)
Well, as it turns out our pattern-breaking girl is a delightful as the others. A true blessing in every way. I’ve thanked the Lord many, many times for sending her to us.
I have been accused of being paranoid by my GYN. ‘Are you sure you want to…AND…?’ Oh yeah.
We’re done. And this time we REALLY mean it.
Comment #121 by JamiJanuary 24th, 2008 at 11:18 amSo… forget that last boy in paragraph one of the previous post. I promise it doesn’t mean we still need a boy. Nothing Freudian there. No m’am.
Comment #122 by JamiJanuary 24th, 2008 at 11:23 amErin,
“We are amazing, brave women doing an important work, whether we have one child or 20.”
Oh, that needs to go up on my wall somewhere or something. I have thought that many times in my life, and it’s soooo great to hear it from other people! Thanks!
That last parapgraph too, was very helpful to me.
It’s good to know that just becuase I might not have the desire to bear children anymore (which might change) since I DO have the desire to do the Lord’s will, and the desire to know what it is (and trying to be patient with His timetables), that I am doing a-okay. There are just some things you hear from leaders, etc. and go “Wait a minute. What does that mean, REALLY?” I guess this is one of those things.
Comment #123 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 11:45 amI guess I’ve always assumed the desire would be like RW suggested: there untill you’re done and then it stops. I’m assuming. So far at some point I’ve always wanted another baby. And then, of course, will come the desire for grandkids, when our kids start reaching adulthood.
Comment #124 by snow whiteJanuary 24th, 2008 at 12:50 pmBut I also think as we have children, that joy of seeing their different personalities and inclinations and talents is something that will continue after this life. After all, that’s what eternal progression is all about: Raising our own spirit children and helping them progress. That’s what makes me concerned about LDS people who know that and don’t want kids at all, for whatever reason. Though I guess if it were a matter of physical or emotional health, that will be resolved in the resurrection. I would imagine that the decision to have none probably comes from their family life as children, but I don’t know. Does anyone personally know someone LDS who doesn’t want any kids at all?
There is a couple in my ard who did not want any children at all. The husband was severly abused by his father as a child, and as a convert, felt that he didn’t have the capctiy to know how to do what God expected him to do with a child. He had jsut never seen it done right. The wife just didn’t want any. I’m not sure why. anyway, they ened up having a baby after all, and they are SUCH great parents. It completly changed the husband’s views on having children. It is such a great thing to see their family, knowing what they all had to overcome to get where they are. It is, in my opinion, quite a miracle.
Comment #125 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 12:59 pmttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Comment #126 by StarfoxyJanuary 24th, 2008 at 2:54 pmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Comment #127 by StarfoxyJanuary 24th, 2008 at 2:55 pmttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Comment #128 by StarfoxyJanuary 24th, 2008 at 2:57 pmStarfoxy has been doing this comment all over the place- I’m guessing one of her kids is at the helm…
AT least let’s hope so- or we might have to stage an intervention!
Comment #129 by Tracy MJanuary 24th, 2008 at 2:59 pmSigh. You sneak off into your bedroom to eat some chocolate by yourself and this is how they repay you. Yes, my two year old is responsible for this, darn kid. Next thing I know he’ll be adding movie to our Netflix and buying things from iTunes.
Comment #130 by StarfoxyJanuary 24th, 2008 at 4:00 pmI will agree with eljee and Erin that Heavenly Father has a way of directing our lives despite ourselves. He will not always compel us or command us or twist our arm - but He will gently guide us and we have the option of following his lead.
As I’ve said, we’ve been married 8 years, and always planned on kids “in the future”. The “surprise” and ultimately failed pregnancy a year ago was a good way of showing us that 1) the Lord wanted us to wake out of our stupor and start considering the possibility of children; and 2) we need to “get our house in order”.
My PB says the Lord will tell me when the time is right for all major decisions in my life: buying a home, getting married, having kids. So, I suppose it’s been easier for me than for some others to live at the mercy and will of His timetable.
Rather than always waiting for a wake-up call, however, it takes great care to be patient and continually try to understand his will.
The LDS Gem just yesterday said: “Elder Neal A. Maxwell linked patience and faith together when he taught: ‘Patience is tied very closely to faith in our Heavenly Father. Actually, when we are unduly impatient, we are suggesting that we know what is best–better than does God. Or, at least, we are asserting that our timetable is better than His’.
“We can grow in faith only if we are willing to wait patiently for God’s purposes and pattern to unfold in our lives,
on His timetable.” –Robert C. Oaks, “The Power of Patience,” Ensign, Nov. 2006, 16-17)
Isn’t it “sweet the peace the gospel brings”? I’m totally Type A, but when I hear teachings like this, I can relax myself a little, and increase in my perspective for Heavenly Father’s plan for my brothers and sisters in the gospel, and how wonderfully different he has things set out for each of us - it’s what makes us unique!
Comment #131 by NicholeJanuary 24th, 2008 at 4:31 pmSatrfoxy, that is hialrious! There is a way to lock your keyboard, but I’m not sure how. At least I think my techie DH told me there is a way. hmmm…maybehe did…maybe it’s wishful thinking. I’ll ask him.
Comment #132 by mellocelloJanuary 24th, 2008 at 5:46 pmStarfoxy,
I asked him about locking the keyboard, and he said that it can be unplugged (yeah, I’m so not going back there and pulling out the whatsiwhosit instead and getting blamed for breaking somthing!) Then, he looked all excited and said that he’d have to write a script to do it. He’s so cute!
Nichole,
Comment #133 by mellocelloJanuary 25th, 2008 at 4:44 amThanks for all those great quotes. I have to say, when I first started reading this blog about # of kids, some things I read made me nervous, some things made me a teensy bit irked, but everytime I have read a quote someone has put up from a gen. authority, I go: Oh, yeah, that’s what I WANTED to feel. Peace.
I do realize how much pressure is being put on couples right now to have a certain family size. And I do appreciate the prayers, pondering and spirituality couples strive for. Yes, it is a decision between you, your husband & the Lord. No one should be able to make you feel guilty, tease or label you for those decisions.
However…..
I feel that society today puts so much importance on finances, looks & being “of” the world. It’s become a “must” to not get married until you have a big bank account & can purchase a home. And not to have children until you, not only can provide for them (food, clothing, shelter…) but to have furniture sets, a completely decorated nursery & a closet full of baby clothes. Why is it that after their first or second pregnancy, they don’t like the way their body looks so THAT is the deciding factor about how many kids they want? I have to say that even though I love my sis-in-law, her looks & not having a brand new crib is the reason they don’t want to have more children. How many couples would do ANYTHING to be able to concive? Would give up careers, sell their homes, travel unheard of distances to give their love to a new baby? Yet we have their neighbors who “just don’t want to potty train another child”.
I don’t know how this sounds coming from a mother of 5. But I do know that when we were trying to decide if 4 was our last, no matter what I was hearing from my family & I knew it was a decision between me & my hubby & the Lord. Yes, it’s important to plan for children, financialy & emotionally, but don’t look at yourself naked, or at your unfinished home or look on TV or fashion magazines for your answers. Look at your last child late at night when they’re sleeping and think about if you had made a decision like that BEFORE they were born. That child would be gone. Think about that still, small voice & what it was telling you to do. Whether you have 1 or 10, you may have your entire family here or there may be another child waiting to be with their family here on earth.
Comment #134 by KrisJanuary 25th, 2008 at 1:38 pmSometimes I think the shallow reasons people might give for not wanting more children are actaully covering up for something deeper that they may not want to divulge. Like a feeling of inadiquacy, (SP?), or of life changing too drastically from what they are comfortable with, or fear of being way too overwhelmed by different emotions (anger, depression, lonliness, etc.) I just try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are probably doing the BEST they know how to do and that, hey, if you really DON’T want another kid, then you probably shouldn’t have one. Whatever the reasons may be, they are *their* reasons. They might regret it later, but then it will also be *their* regret.
That being said, it is unfortunate when people’s priorities seem to get a little (or a lot) out of whack.
Comment #135 by mellocelloJanuary 25th, 2008 at 3:03 pm“don’t look at yourself naked” LOL
I’ve been reading a lot lately in various places about quality of life expectations (sort of along the lines Kris mentioned) and how they have changed as years have gone by. For example, people feel like they need much bigger houses now than they used to. I know we get funny looks for living in a 3-bedroom house with *soon to be* 4 kids. (You just have to get bunkbeds, people. Not everyone can afford a six-bedroom house!) I personally don’t think I could stand those enormous houses where you only have like one piece of furniture occupying a room, but I notice I’m affected by that whole lifestyle idealization, too. I keep having to fight myself over wanting nice-looking furniture and a decorating budget, even though I know it shouldn’t be that important. And i’m probably never going to have nice-looking carpet until my kids have grown up. I agree we’d all do better not to worry so much about what other people have, and just be grateful for what we have. I like to remind myself of how poor we’ve been in the past, and I am glad to have a washer and dryer, and not to have to lug kids to the laundromat, and to have my totally undeserved luxury of a dishwasher.
Comment #136 by snow whiteJanuary 25th, 2008 at 3:37 pmI think some people are definitely just too into their bodies with no other deeper reasons. I was with my sister at a beauty salon when she was about 7 months pregnant, and the hairdresser mentioned that she had seen a show on the discovery channel about all of the changes that take place in a woman’s body when she has a baby, and she said, disgustedly, “I just don’t think I could ever do that to myself.” She wasn’t a young unthinking 18-year-old either. She was probably 30, and we knew she was LDS too. My sister felt like it was kind of rude to mention that to a 7-month pregnant lady, and I don’t think she ever went back there for a haircut.
Comment #137 by RWJanuary 26th, 2008 at 4:57 amyeah, since I’m eight months preggers right now, I shouldn’t even comment on that.
cough cough *stretchmarks* cough cough
I personally would be more comfortable if Sister Beck relaxed that whole “cleanliness” thing, since the more kids I have, the farther from the ideal we go……
Comment #138 by snow whiteJanuary 28th, 2008 at 10:19 amjust found this website today and have enjoyed reading the comments.
I have a sister who has 8 kids and she is constantly getting the rolling eyes and the comments and questions about having more.
I use to get questioned when I had 4.
I dont think anyone should ask why you dont have more or if you are having more. It is so personal.
I dont feel your less of a women if you have two or none. It certainly doesnt make you better because you have 4 or more.
I will have to admit I just had them when I felt it was time and after 4 we were sure we were done. We took medical measure to prevent further pregnancies.
3 years later I felt we should have two more. It was hard. we were done potty training. no more diapers and my youngest would be in school soon. I talk to my husband and after some time he felt the same. We felt that if we ( I emphasize the we because it is personal) could provide a good home for more children we should. Problem is we didnt know what to do. we did a lot of research on adoption, foster care etc. or to reverse what we had done years previous.
the answer was to reverse the medical procedure done earlier. of course heath insurance doesn’t pay for this. We prayed and researched how we were going to come up with the money and where to have it done. all was answered it took a year but we were able to save the money and have it reversed and 3 months later I concieved my 5th child.
It was great because we didnt tell anyone about any of this we just let it out I was pregnant. We didnt make a big deal about it. Some asked if it was planned we said absolutely and left it at that.
Some were shocked others were happy for us. We knew it was the right thing for us. We had stated many times before we were done. (being asked the old question are you having more every time you meet someone new) They would say we thought you were done. We would just say well we were wrong or we changed our minds. I found the less I explained the better. And I never ask anyone else those questions.
Deciding to reverse the procedure was not easy but it was right. If you feel the need to tie your tubes or have your husband get a vasectomy it should be done very prayerfully. It was not the right thing for us at least not at that time. It is a very hard thing to reverse and doesnt always work.
We now have our 5th and where we live we get a lot of “God bless you” We just shake our heads and laugh. We also get a lot of how do you do it. My husband always says “well the trick is not having them all at once”
I get the rolling eyes and the you must be perfect people looks all of the time even from church members. When we went to our new ward I braced myself for the first question. How many kids do you have? and then the bomber. Are you done? I hate that is that all they are interested in. I just say I dont know or maybe. (What I really want to say is does it matter) I love to see the look they give me. We are not perfect. We are not better then everyone else. We make plenty of mistakes. I wish people would not measure themselves to others and their choices. It kind of isolates you when they act this way. There is certainly other ways to get to know a family other then the concern over the number of children they have.
I see that this goes both ways. no wonder women get depressed.
We love our new daughter and cant imagine not having her in our home. I love my big family but sometimes it is a challenge. I am fortunate to be at home with them. I dont think I could have this many if I had to work.
The judging goes both ways. I wish we could stop judging and just focus what is right for us and our families. Maybe that would help take the pressure of others and alow them to do the same.
sorry about the ranting and sorry that my thoughts are all over the place.
Comment #139 by stephJanuary 28th, 2008 at 12:49 pmWow. After spending the last hour or so reading through most of the comments, I have two thoughts: First, pretty much everything relevant that could be said has been said. And second, I should be playing with my kid right now!
Comment #140 by Emily DubJanuary 29th, 2008 at 6:18 am:)
OK, Super Tuesday is over and all of the Romney supporters are totally depressed, but I couldn’t help but chime in on the socialized medicine debate in case anybody is still reading. I lived in England for a year, and the ONLY good thing about their system is that we didn’t have to pay for it. Other than that EVERY aspect of it was HORRIBLE.
You see people walking around with huge deformities that will never be fixed because socialized medicine deems it a waste of money to try to fix those problems.
I knew several people who couldn’t work and support their families for over a year because they were on the waiting list for major surgeries.
Doctors were rude, facilities all seemed a little dirty, and we always walked out of facilities wondering if the medical problem had been treated properly.
I am not making this stuff up. We lived it, and every American there with us (in graduate school) swore that ANYTHING was better than socialized medicine.
Down with Hillary 2008!
Comment #141 by RWFebruary 6th, 2008 at 5:29 pmI have no idea why this comment posted in this section instead of the super tuesday one… hmmmmm. I’ll copy and paste it over there. Sorry
Comment #142 by RWFebruary 6th, 2008 at 5:31 pm