By Heather O.
So, you’ve met my bluebirds. In case you don’t recall, here is a photo, cropped per y’all’s suggestion:

(Sorry, it’s kinda fuzzy. My photo skeelz are not so hot. But you get the idea.)
Here is the Bluebird’s nemesis, known to some as “the killer House Sparrow”:
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I sent the following question to Bluebird Bob:
“We have 2 bluebird boxes. We have seen a pair of bluebirds making a nest in one of them, but the other has been taken over by house sparrows. Since the sparrows have made a nest, I have not seen them around the bluebirds; however, I know they can pose a threat to blubirds. Should I evict, trap, and kill the house sparrows that are already established? If so, exactly how does one trap and humanely kill a bird?”
Here was Bluebird Bob’s reply:
“There are excellent inbox traps for doing this, and yes, you should. Send your mailing address to walshaw1@cox.net and I will send you a free 20 page Bluebird book that will give you all the information that you need. Bluebird Bob. Be sure to kill them, as if you let them go somewhere else you are just giving the problem to someone else. Like starlings they are classified as alien pests and are not protected. The traps do not hurt them. They just keep them from exiting the box. You then put a clear plastic bag over the box and let them out into it. Once you are sure you have a house sparrow you just whack them. They are fragile and this kills them instantly.”
Holy mackeral.
I understand the philosophy behind this. House Sparrows are not native birds, and were introduced by, yup, you guessed it, NEW YORKERS to help kill some worms that were killing trees in Central Park (Have I mentioned New Yorkers are weird?). But House Sparrows seem to the be the carp of the birding world. They eat anything (except, as it turns out, those pesky worms in Central Park), including gross disgusting trash that, as one author put it, “No American bird would humble itself to eat”. (And if you are thinking that pigeons, birds affectionately known as “rats with wings” are the noteable exception, you should realize that they are not native to North America either. Apparently American birds have picky palates. Who knew.) They can terrorize other native cavity nesting birds, including going so far as to kill bluebirds and their young. One author described them like the mouse in your house. Cute and fuzzy, but alien and dangerous enough to merit use of aggressive force.
Dude.
I don’t know if I’m man enough to do this.
But I haven’t seen the female bluebird around lately, just the more colorful male, which could mean a couple of different things:
a) The sparrows bugged her so much she took off, disapproving of the site of the box in general, and went to pick another one-
b) The sparrows went so far as to actually kill her already, and she’s dead somewhere while her mate sings a mournful song of woe-
c)The cat next door had a tasty lunch. See above regarding mournful song of woe.
One of the other real problems is that I’ve read that a male house sparrow bonds with a box more than he bonds with his mate, and will therefore return year after year to the same box. The little bugger.
So, what do I do? Kill the suckers? Let nature take it’s course and let the best bird win? Take down both boxes and retire from the bird breeding business?
I’m just all a-flummoxed.
What would you do? Anybody ever kill a bird before?




Air Soft baby!
Comment #1 by AprilApril 7th, 2008 at 6:41 pmsnicker… sorry no good suggestions here.
Comment #2 by AprilApril 7th, 2008 at 6:42 pmYes, I’ve killed a bird - when it flew into my windshield when I was driving. So it wasn’t exactly on purpose. But I sure as heck would off the sparrows. Actually, the more likely scenario: I would trap them, and have my husband whack them to death.
Comment #3 by Julie PApril 7th, 2008 at 6:43 pmWow, what a predicament! I think the bluebirds are so cool and RARE! At least I’ve never seen one. (if this is all in caps, I apologize. I am not yelling- at the moment at least.) I don’t know what I’d do. We killed mice in our house because they were not good for our family. Do you consider the bluebirds part of your family?
Comment #4 by AmberApril 7th, 2008 at 6:45 pmWe have cardinals here, they are sooo cool to look at, I would totally invest in a way to get rid of sparrows if they were bothering the cardinal.
My daughter saw one in a parking lot and called it a “hawk” I was laughing my butt off!!
Do it now before they have babies, it’s harder to get rid of them, once the babies hatch.
Comment #5 by SarahApril 7th, 2008 at 6:49 pmWe killed chicken on our stake pioneer trek. It was no biggie…kill the birds. Oooohhh, better yet, watch “The Birds” then that will put you in the mood to KILL the birds. That’s all I got.
Comment #6 by MiggyApril 7th, 2008 at 7:00 pmDude… I don’t think I could do it. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t, but I’m totally squeamish about that sort of thing- I can’t even fix chicken for dinner without getting ill at the thought.
True story:
When still living in CA, we had a mouse in our kitchen. DH set some traps behind the fridge- and of couse, one of them snapped while he was at work. It didn’t kill the mouse, only caught it’s back leg-.
My cousin, (a very big, very gay man) was visiting at the time, and it took both of us, squealing and nervously jumping around to decide we had to kill the poor thing. But how? We decided to put it in a bag and take it out back and smoosh it- but I totally chickened out. So my big gay cousin, squealing and shreiking, tried to smoosh it with a dictionary.
I still feel bad about that mouse.
Comment #7 by Tracy MApril 7th, 2008 at 7:02 pmLet’s say you do “whack them.” What the heck do you do with the bod? Throw it in the trash?
Comment #8 by The WizApril 7th, 2008 at 7:15 pmI don’t have any moral objection to killing them - I just don’t want to be the one to do it.
Comment #9 by JustRandiApril 7th, 2008 at 7:40 pmDo you know anyone else who is man enough? Maybe you could call your Visiting Teacher.
It wouldn’t be easy, but yeah, I could do it. My experience with a mouse in the house proved I could smash an animal. Um, okay, that would be many, many mice. And the snap traps didn’t work. They’d eat the bait every time. So we had to use the sticky traps, which are supposed to catch them by the face and suffocate them quickly, but they never do. So I learned to make my mind go blank, slip the trap into a plastic bag, and whack the bag on a brick wall. That’s gotta be less cruel than slowly starving to death. Bluebird Bob’s description sounds exactly like what I had to do with the mice. Oh, they’re vile.
Comment #10 by AhnaApril 7th, 2008 at 7:48 pmI’ve vacuumed up baby mice and I’d get the sparrows too. They are messy mean little things. Just leave them in the bag after “sending them on their way” and toss the whole thing straight into your outdoor trash, unless you have a cat. Free food for the feline.
Comment #11 by All8April 7th, 2008 at 8:12 pmKeep the bird in the bag and let your son at them. Or better yet, a bunch of cub scouts. Or are they supposed to save animals? OK, do while they are not in uniform.
Comment #12 by NuttyApril 7th, 2008 at 8:19 pmI think Ahna’s idea of whacking them on a brick wall once they are in a bag would be the easiest way to do it. Then, you’re just swinging the bag to kill the bird, not actually smashing it with a bat or something. Make sure the bag is NOT CLEAR. Like a black bag would be good. Holy cow, that’s probably really obvious to everyone, but I *just* thought of that. yuck.
Anyway, Heather, I think you won’t go to hell for getting rid of pests. People who go hunting don’t go to hell. People who have to slaughter cows for a living don’t go to hell. Oh, wait you’re a vegetarian, huh? Well, I don’t know your personal feelings on that, but I guess you’ll have to think about it. But people who kill mice that are in their house don’t go to hell. At least, I’m pretty sure they don’t. But that’s using our LDS idea of hell. If you asked a buddhist…well… You wouldn’t go to hell, you’d just end up as a worm or something in your next life.
Listen to some really loud, angry music first, then decorate some old clothing with sharpies–they’ll be like your battle clothes–and start yelling really loudly to get you all pumped up to be fearless. Then, and this is the key–as you are ahem, “controlling the pests” let out a loud, primal amazon woman yell/scream. That should get you through it without you losing your nerve, or gagging.
Either that, or get your DH to do it.:)
Good luck.
And ps, if you decide you just can’t go through with it, I don’t blame you.
Comment #13 by mellocelloApril 7th, 2008 at 8:36 pmI don’t think I could do it. I have a hard enough time killing spiders. The above suggestions are pretty much what I have to do to kill a spider or a bee that gets in the house. (Minus the sharpie-drawn-on clothing–I don’t do that. It just sounded like fun).
Shoot the bugger and call it defending the innocent.
The bigger issue: Will you go to Hell for using the word “hell” instead of a Mormon alternative?
Comment #14 by RayApril 7th, 2008 at 8:41 pmACK. Dead bird talk. Once when I was seventeen a bird flew into my windshield and its body was all smashed onto the windshield but it was STILL ALIVE and it was LOOKING AT ME and PECKING ON THE WINDSHIELD. I couldn’t stop screaming. So my brother turned on the wipers.
Scarred for LIFE.
Comment #15 by SueApril 7th, 2008 at 9:10 pmI am famous in these parts for accidentally killing birds. They run into me, not the other way around. (remember that Gilmore Girls where the deer runs into Rory? Yeah, like that. Only with birds.) Seriously, it’s horrifying, but it happens quite often. And once with a “polar bear” dog. Don’t ask.
I don’t know what I would do. The thought of killing anything bugs me, even vermin, though I do keep traps 24/7 “just in case”.
Fast and pray about it over night ; ) and then decide if they qualify as vermin or if, some group such as PETA would have a more humane deterrent to the little monsters.
Comment #16 by s'meeApril 7th, 2008 at 10:08 pmIntroduce the house sparrow to that cat next door. Then you can feel like it’s a whole “circle of life” thing and not a “I have to whack a bird in a clear plastic bag” thing.
Comment #17 by The WizApril 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pmAnd does anybody else sing “make a little bird house in your soul” whenever Heather talks about this?
Comment #18 by The WizApril 7th, 2008 at 10:31 pmI guess I’m going to be the dissenting voice. They’re not in your house, they’re not endangering you or your family…what you’re describing is cruel and unnecessary. If you don’t like them using the nestboxes, take them down. They can’t help that they’re non-native, and they’re here now and there’s nothing to be done about it. Bluebirds are certainly facing a number of pressures (though habitat loss is at least as bad, seeing how the eastern US used to be almost nothing but hardwood forests and there’s none of that now), but killing these sparrows isn’t going to be a matter of life or death for them. You also can’t compare it to hunting, as you certainly aren’t going to eat the sparrows.
Don’t kill the little birds, as I believe it was David O. Mckay said.
Comment #19 by FirebyrdApril 8th, 2008 at 3:44 amActually, Firebyrd, the sparrows ARE a matter of life and death for the bluebird. House sparrows are known to kill female bluebirds, as well as kill bluebird babies. So, they actually do pose a direct threat to the bluebirds.
But you’re right–it’s not the sparrow’s fault that people are dumb. And they are not hurting me, it’s true.
But on the other hand, what about taking responsibility for the human’s mistakes? It seems that knowingly aiding in increasing the population of a known pest that is harmful to other birds isn’t exactly ethical, either.
Comment #20 by Heather O.April 8th, 2008 at 5:08 amAck! I could never do that. Now I know what birds are all over the “poop bush” as we call it on the side of our house. There are like 20 of them and the bush is spotted with these little white dots. Yuck. We enjoyed them a great deal, but now I am thinking they are like mice.
We have a bird feeder. Oue neighbors also have a bird feeder. I’ve noticed that we have a good mix. We have the pesky sparrow and some cardinals and some really pretty yellow bird. I think the Cardinals take care of thier own. We have about 5-6 of them that come around our back yard and they sit side by side with the sparrows. The aparrows leave them alone.
Maybe our street just overfeeds all the birds so they aren’t as territorial. Hmm….My brother had to take care of sick birds once when we were kids. Some of them had to be killed and he would put them in a dark garbage bag and whack it against the house. That usually did the trick.
We actually had a little bird funeral this weekend. My daughter and son found a dead bird on the lawn (totally dry and dehydrated). We had a thaw of all our snow and all this stuff shows up, gross. My husband said that is what happened in Ukrain while on his mission. When spring came, it just unearthed all the dead things taht died and were buried in the snow.
Comment #21 by KatieApril 8th, 2008 at 6:22 amI was totally thinking clear bag. How bad is that??? I must be perverted.
Comment #22 by annahannahApril 8th, 2008 at 7:01 amI’m sorry, I can’t stop laughing, especially after the “birdhouse in your soul ” comment. I think that bluebird Bob might be on crack, but he has a point, smash the little suckers. No really put them in a black bag and let dh doing the dirty work, that’s what he’s there for that and killing spiders, oh yeah and mice.
Comment #23 by moddyApril 8th, 2008 at 7:14 amAnyway good luck, and don’t let J watch the killings.
No way ever. I couldn’t do it. I am a walking dichotomy. I am a carnivore, yet if I had to kill my own I’d be a vegetarian in a heartbeat. The scripture “even the fall of the sparrow” keeps repeating in my head and I just couldn’t do it. But then again…I’m named after a bird. And it’s not sparrow!
My Bishop (when I was a beehive) killed a sparrow teaching about the word of wisdom one night at church. I will never forget the horrifying act, and he stated never would he. He knew what he had done was cruel and a big huge mistake.
On the other hand, the bluebirds would probably be very grateful to you.
Comment #24 by chroniclerApril 8th, 2008 at 7:42 amOh great. Bring up the “fall of the sparrow” scripture. Like I’m going to be able to kill them now.
I emptied out their nest, and left the box open so they can’t build another one. Now they are hanging out on my roof, eyeing the bluebird’s box. I’m at a loss, people. Seriously.
Comment #25 by Heather O.April 8th, 2008 at 8:20 amCould not do it. No way, no how. I approve of the whole thing, but like chronicler and a lot of others, I could not do it myself. Thats what I have Sean for.
Comment #26 by Alison WonderlandApril 8th, 2008 at 8:27 amI do like the watching “The Birds” idea though.
And there’s no way I’d let scouts anywhere near it. Little boys are bloodthirsty enough, I don’t want to encourage those tendencies.
We had a nutso yellow finch around here recently. He kept defending its territory against that other finch that would just not stop following him. He attacked it at the bedroom windows, the cars’ rear view mirrors, anything with a reflection. Poop and peck marks everywhere. I certainly felt like killing it, but not enough to do anything about it. He moved on just this last month.
I guess if I HAD to kill a wild bird, I’d clear out my deep freeze and toss him in there. Let him freeze to death, toss him, then defrost the freezer and bleach it again and again and again.
(Or I could just call my FIL who would come over and shoot the thing [the bird not the freezer]
)
Comment #27 by JamiApril 8th, 2008 at 8:45 amWhat? I thought you were joking. He seriously wants you to trap it in a bag and whack it death??? There is NO WAY I would ever do that.
Comment #28 by StacyApril 8th, 2008 at 9:05 amI’m thinking, why not just seal up the plastic bag. Don’t they need oxygen too? Place it away from view and let it die. Oh the imagery.
Comment #29 by chroniclerApril 8th, 2008 at 9:06 amOh Stacey, I wish it were a joke. House sparrows are the bane of the birding world, and bluebird enthusiasts are quite serious about population control of the House Sparrow.
In other words, yeah, he wants me to trap the birds and whack them to death.
Comment #30 by Heather O.April 8th, 2008 at 9:12 amPerhaps a disposable cooler with dry ice and a layer of straw? How humane can death be?
Comment #31 by JamiApril 8th, 2008 at 9:20 amIs there any way to make the bluebird’s box unsuitable for the sparrows? Make the hole smaller/larger, the box shallower or deeper? Move it to a different location?
I had to help my mom kill a poisonous snake we found in the yard. It posed too much danger to our pets but I still wish deperately that there had been something else we could have done. I don’t recommend killing the sparrows. Send ‘em to me, I love them.
Comment #32 by Proud Daughter of EveApril 8th, 2008 at 10:17 amIf we find a poisonous snake in our yard, we are supposed to call the fire department and they come and relocate them. Is that not the case where you live, PDoE? Or was there not enough time for that?
Cause there ain’t no way I’m going near a poisonous snake, but it’s not because I love them.
Oh, and I was talking to Heather, and she said you have to catch them in a clear bag to make sure it’s a sparrow. Ew. But I guess you could change bags before you start whacking. Ewwww..
She’s pretty sure it’s already killed the female bluebird, but she can’t be positive, and now the male isn’t around anymore either. It may be too late for those bluebirds already, but she hasn’t killed the sparrow.
Comment #33 by The WizApril 8th, 2008 at 10:41 amDEATH TO THE SPARROWS! I’m not a violent person by nature, but I’m all for getting rid of vermin. I say stick ‘em in a plastic bag, make sure they’re the ones you want, then put the bag in a black garbage bag and whack away. Put on your headphones, turn up the music, and pretend you’re killing roaches. Or ants. Especially if you really think they’ve already killed the bluebird. It’s kind of like putting down a dog that has turned violent.
Comment #34 by CrystalApril 8th, 2008 at 10:52 amif you just sealed the plastic bag, couldn’t they get out by tearing the plastic with their beak?
Poor little birdies. Sorry about your predicament, Heather. Could you call a pest control company or something, so you don’t have to do this all yourself?
Comment #35 by mellocelloApril 8th, 2008 at 10:59 amAsk your DH if he’ll do it. Seriously! And…what about poison? And…how the heck does a little sparrow kill a bluebird?? Peck it to death?
Comment #36 by MarisaApril 8th, 2008 at 11:27 am“I do not believe any man should kill animals or birds unless he needs them for food, and then he should not kill innocent little birds that are not intended for food for man. I think it is wicked for men to thirst in their souls to kill almost everything which possesses animal life. It is wrong, and I have been surprised at prominent men whom I have seen whose very souls seemed to be athirst for the shedding of animal blood.” - Joseph Fielding Smith
Comment #37 by tesseractApril 8th, 2008 at 11:53 amI would not be able to do it, but then again I have a hard time pulling a worm in half to put on my hook while fishing…
From a comment above, I believe it was Kimball who talked about not hurting the birds, not McKay.
Comment #38 by green mormon architectApril 8th, 2008 at 11:57 amMy guess is that if someone had asked Joseph Fielding Smith about vermin and pests he would have included an exception in the above statement — and anyway, the statement is a condemnation of bloodthirsty, recreational killing — it doesn’t address the problems of humane and thoughtful wildlife management. My feeling is that Heather’s stewardship over her yard gives her the choice to humanely exterminate one harmful creature in order to create a safe haven for another, increasingly endangered one.
I would have a hard time doing this but I think I could (if I could not talk my husband into doing it for me.) I would probably shake or cry while I was doing it but still do it. And I would make sure my 8-year-old daughter knew nothing about it — or maybe I would explain the situation to her but make sure she wasn’t around when the actual killing took place.
I do think the quick whacking sounds more humane than some of the other suggestions — unless maybe you could toss the birds into a very, very fiery furnace for instant incineration. (If you saw them flying around intact within the furnace, you’d know you’d chosen the wrong birds to kill. Ha ha (sorry that little burst of blasphemy.)
Comment #39 by ZinaApril 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pmWe once caught a mouse on a glue trap. It was caught by the lips and front paws. DH took it out and threw it in the garbage, but then the thought of the mouse being miserable and scared and starving drove him crazy, so he went and fished it back out. Now what? He thought about loosening it with vegetable oil and releasing it in a field, but the poor thing was really stuck and would not come out unscathed, thus a long death by starvation anyway. So, DH decided it would be a good idea to stick the glue trap under the tire of the van and drive over it. Just end it quickly. Or not. He sat at the wheel for 20 minutes working up the nerve to do it. He finally gunned it. He then sat and cried for another 20 minutes. Let us hope we never need to depend on him for our support in the wilderness.
Speaking of which, DH did not eat meat for over a year because he could not bring himself to participate in a chicken kill we once did in our wilderness job. He felt like he had no right to eat meat if he was so disturbed by the killing of the animal and could not do it himself. Eventually, though, the stomach won out.
Good luck, Heather O. Hope you have good tires.
Comment #40 by solApril 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pmOh, and I bet DH wishes he would have thought about the plastic bag for the mouse…
Comment #41 by solApril 8th, 2008 at 12:38 pmThe biggest problem with the whole scenario is that there is not just one sparrow. If you kill him today, will his brother not return tomorrow? Are you prepared to eradicate sparrows from your part of the planet? Or should you simply accept the natural order of things and allow the bird to fight it out among themselves?
The problem with that train of thought is that you would then have to remove your bluebird houses and any seed you may provide too.
It’s all so complicated. There goes that rock in the pond thing again!
Comment #42 by chroniclerApril 8th, 2008 at 12:56 pmJust catch the sparrow and let it loose in your bathroom. Maybe he’ll commit suicide in your toilet.
Comment #43 by wbprawApril 8th, 2008 at 1:57 pmDo it Heather. If you can’t do it yourself perhaps you could contact your local bird watching society and find someone more militant who would be happy to do it for you.
Also if the sparrow doesn’t eat bugs and kills the birds that do imagine all the insects you will have in your yard (and your garden) if you don’t get rid of it. If you are willing to weed your garden and trap the mice in your house there is no moral difference in getting rid of the sparrow.
Comment #44 by MarieApril 8th, 2008 at 2:00 pmFirst, if you do call your visiting teacher to do it, and she does, then you have to take video and post it. Then you have to send the story into the Ensign because that would totally up readership and subscriptions would never again expire.
Years ago a man in my branch bore his testimonly about how to kill squirrels in your attic if they are driving you crazy. I think the same would work here. Fill a fish tank with pirhanas. Balance a board over the top like a teeter-totter and put peanut butter (bird seed? Suet??) on the end. When the bird/squirrel goes to get a tasty treat, he will fall into the water and the piranhas will take care of the rest. And I love my family and I know the church is true. Amen.
Comment #45 by LisaCApril 8th, 2008 at 3:48 pmIf you not wanting to wack them. How about keep them in the bag, attach the bag to your tail pipe and start the car, it won’t take long and they actually won’t feel pain.
Comment #46 by SarahApril 8th, 2008 at 6:09 pmOh, man. This thread has me gasping and/or laughing out loud and I don’t do that often enough.
-The thrashing pecking windshied bird being flung off into the air with the wipers. Ack!
-The suggestion to enable the Sparrow’s suicide in your toilet per your history with birds. Awesome.
-The image of sol’s husband sitting in the van for 20 minutes contemplating and working up the nerve to kill that creature with its face stuck to a sticky trap.
Thanks, I needed that.
Also, I’d like to think I’m burly enough to go around smashing birds with no qualms. The truth is it would wig me out. I’d do it, but it would wig me out. I’d have to dwell long and hard about orphaned baby bluebirds or picture the sparrow with his gang of thugs bullying and teasing the prettier native birds. That mourning song of the lady bluebird’s mate might work if I thought about it long enough.
Comment #47 by whatserbucketApril 8th, 2008 at 6:29 pmI’m pretty sure I couldn’t do that (”just whack them. They are fragile and this kills them instantly”-yikes!) Even if they are a pest-like bird, I couldn’t do that.
Comment #48 by Richelle FApril 8th, 2008 at 6:30 pmRan over the mouse with his car? Talk about overkill! What a funny/sad story. I guess we’re all just too out of touch with nature to know the easiest ways to eradicate it if need be.
Comment #49 by ZinaApril 8th, 2008 at 7:59 pm“First, if you do call your visiting teacher to do it, and she does, then you have to take video and post it”
BwaHAHAhaha!
I cannot *imagine* what my vising teachers would say if I asked them to do that! But I could never keep a straight face while asking them. They’d never take me seriously anyway. Anyone who knows me well rarely ever does.
Comment #50 by mellocelloApril 8th, 2008 at 9:39 pmI wasn’t very clear in what I meant-this is not life or death for the bluebird /species./ Sparrows are here and there’s nothing that can be done about it. They are as innocent of wrong-doing as the bluebirds are. I’m truly shocked at the number of people condoning the killing of a bird because it endangers the life of another. Who are we to judge which is more worthy of life? I don’t see how you can consider a sparrow a pest since it is /not/ in Heather’s house or pantry, is /not/ endangering her or her family in any way, and in fact is probably in her yard on a permanent basis in the first place because of conditions she’s created (nestboxes and I’m assuming she leaves out seed too).
I have truly never been so horrified by anything on the bloggernacle before, not even the masses of crap that sometimes gets spewed on FMH. What’s next, are the lot of you going to start killing the neighborhood cats? Poisoning the dog that runs into your yard? There was just a study done that shows the mere presence of dogs, even leashed ones that are under control, disrupts breeding of birds.
You people who are advocating this killing are worse than the farmers in Australia who mercilessly trap cockatoos, rare and not, and beat, poison, and otherwise torture them to death. At least they have the excuse of trying to protect their farms. You’re like the few idiots on a bird list I’m on who recently advocated killing a threatened hawk to save the birds eating at a feeder one person put out. You can’t alter the environment in a way that will inevitably cause these species to encounter each other in a way that will cause discord and then think you’re doing good to eliminate one by killing them. It’s your fault they’re encountering each other like this in the first place.
I think I’m going to go throw up now and then weep for humanity, because if this is a sampling of the attitudes of LDS folk, we’re definitely all on our way to hell in a handbasket.
Comment #51 by FirebyrdApril 8th, 2008 at 11:16 pmOh, and the various suggestions made here as to alternate ways to kill the sparrows are all far, far more cruel than the suggestion made by the bluebird people (assuming it was done right to cause instantaneous death). Go stick your own head in a bag and see how /you/ like the horrors of suffocation. One of my pet birds died in my arms of a pulmonary embolism a couple of months ago (so what amounted to drawn out suffocation and brain death due to lack of oxygen), and let me tell you, it was an extremely long, drawn out, clearly painful death, complete with panicked flailing and fluttering.
This whole mess was created by people messing with things they don’t understand, i.e. the very intricate workings of ecology, initially by those who released the sparrows, and then by Heather putting out the nestboxes. When are people going to learn to just /leave stuff alone/. You just keep making stuff worse, and I can bring up examples of introduced species that have been far, far, far more destructive than sparrows have. Let things be and let nature rebalance things as best it can.
Comment #52 by FirebyrdApril 8th, 2008 at 11:36 pmsimmer down there, firebyrd. Go take some tums, and stop reading this blog if it bothers you so much. I never understood why people willingly continue to read things they find to be so offensive. Is it becuase you think if you read it, then insult us, we will have a change of heart? Not likely. Try another method of persusion, if making us have a change of heart is your intent.
It’s a difference of opinion here, and I think you are taking some of what has been said here a bit too seriously. Most of us are joking with Heather about how to kill the brids, and those of us wo are not are just trying to help a girl out. It’s not bloodlust, it’s not a love of violence or a hatred of birds. It’s not even an “I’m human so I should have control over all of nature” thing. It’s her choice. the reason she posted this is becuase she has a problem killing the birds. If she really wants them gone, then it’s *her* desicion, and we are mostly just trying to lighten the mood a little. If you feel she WOULD go to hell for killing the sparrows, then just say that instead of insulting people and going over the top with the drama. And the introduction of foreign species does need to be dealt with in a serious manner in some cases. Even the animal rights and environmental groups support the use of species control in some cases: i.e termites in Lousiana, ice plant in CA, and norway rats in New Zealand, among many others. I wonder if you even read the posts, which described how these sparrows are pests who destroy other native birds’ nests, and destroy other brid’s eggs. Other birds who WOULD eat insects and be generally positive to have in a yard. That sounds pretty much like a pest to me. So if you had a squiril in your home or attic that was chewing on your walls and leaving it’s droppings everywhere, would you just leave it there? Would you trap it humanely and set it free somewhere else so it just ins’t a pest to you anymore, but would become a pest to someone else, or probably more likely, find it’s way back to your home becuase of it’s nesting instincts and sense of smell? I wonder what you would do if your pet birds were being invaded by sparrows. Oh, but let me guess, it’s different because the bluebirds aren’t Heather’s pets, right?
By the way, in all sincereity and seriousness, sorry to hear about your bird. That sounds really awful and I can’t even imagine.
Comment #53 by mellocelloApril 9th, 2008 at 6:54 amOh, and just so you know, if I were reading these posts with a sense of seriousness and love for all birds, I would probably see them as offensive and cruel. So I guess I can understand where you’re coming from here Firebyrd. But I will bet that not more than maybe two percent of these posts are actually meant to be taken seriously. Maybe you are upset becuase you think this is not and should never be a laughing matter. Well, I think because of the uncomfortable nature of this situation, the first reaction is to use humor and sarcasm to lighten the mood. I’ve always known that I have a somewhat twisted sense of humor. I guess other people might not read it that way though.
So what are *my* TRUE feelings on the matter? It’s mean to kill things. It’s not fun to do it, and I don’t think I could kill a bird, even if someone would pay me to do it. I’m just too squeemish and sensitive to do that. It does seem cruel, even if they are pests. But I also think that the situation of having pests in your yard warrants some sort of solutio, and, according to native bird enthusuasts, the answer is to dispose of the sparrows. It’s a tough predicament all around, and honestly I’m glad I’m not the one who has to make the final desicion. I feel badly that Heather is that person. She must be having a hard time with it, as I know I would also.
Comment #54 by mellocelloApril 9th, 2008 at 7:23 amI do not envy you one tiny bit. When my sister and I were 19 and 16 we did something for a good reason and we still regret it. My mom, an overly loving woman, had 4 cats, 3 dogs, a bird, and a turtle, oh yeah, and 7 kids, in a very small house and had been widowed that year when my dad died. Part of the problem was that each of my brothers wanted a pet, but the bigger problem was that we lived out in the country where people like to dump their extra animals. I don’t know why people think this is so human. It isn’t, it is cruel to the poor people who now have to take care of your dropped of animals. The animals go looking for food and shelter and end up on our doorstep and my mom can’t turn them away.
Well, one night, when my mom was gone, we heard a soft mewing out the front door. We opened the door on the cutest cat ever. We held it and cuddled it and then realized that there was just no possible way we could let my mom see it. She was always sad when a new animal came because she knew it would be hard to feed it, it would add to the smell, and yet she wouldn’t be able to turn it away.
So we dropped the cat off 10 miles down the road by another farm house. We still talk about how awful that was. It was a horrid thing leaving that animal to most likely die, or even to pass the burden on to someone else.
Comment #55 by LizzyApril 9th, 2008 at 7:53 amWe don’t put up bird feeders since we live across the street from Sammy the Jay-Eating Cat.
My father in law keeps making bird houses with the kids and putting them up each time he comes to visit and I don’t have the heart to take them down since the kids are so pleased about them. We would love bird feeders and houses if it weren’t for that dratted Sammy. Maybe I should take Firebyrd’s suggestion about the neighborhood cats.
(I’ll put a smiley here so she knows that is an attempt at humor and doesn’t call the SPCA and try and get them to serve my internet server with a warrant to reveal my whereabouts and make sure Sammy is alive and kicking.)
Comment #56 by ResearcherApril 9th, 2008 at 8:33 amFirebyrd-
Thanks for your comments, and let me say that I totally understand your position. Killing a living thing is never easy, despite the fact that kiling is, well, part of nature. It’s not easy for me, and I wouldn’t ever even consider it in this case if not for the very real situation that house sparrows are capable of driving bluebirds to extinction. No, we as humans shouldn’t have a say in what kind of living creature is better than another. However, “nature” never intended for bluebirds and housesparrows to compete, particularly Eastern bluebirds. Humans are the direct cause of the house sparrow invasion, and part of me feels like humans should be a part of the solution and do what we can to, as you put it, let nature rebalance itself as best as she can.
The problem is, however, that nature can’t always do that without human intervention. Humans have changed things so dramatically that it often takes another human act to get things back on track. And sometimes, that human act involves the killing or eradication of a species that is someplace it really doesn’t belong.
That said, I haven’t been able to muster the courage to do it, and I will probably just end up taking the bird houses down for this season, and then try to be a better job of keeping sparrows away next season. You are absolutely correct in that I did no research when I put up the boxes–frankly, I thought it was pretty and would look nice in the yard. I had no idea about the competition between bluebirds and sparrows. Put me in “wow, what an eye opening education I’m getting!” category.
Sorry if the light hearted tone offended you. It is a hard thing, and I just took all of the comments to be a way of lightening things up. I hope you don’t think that readers here are bloodthirsty sparrow hunters. Or that I am. They are kinda cute, after all.
And how does a sparrow kill a bluebird? I have no idea, but I imagine it isn’t pleasant.
Comment #57 by Heather O.April 9th, 2008 at 9:04 amBut the real question is:
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
Comment #58 by solApril 9th, 2008 at 9:35 amSpeaking of pestiferous birds, I am listening to a woodpecker right now. I’ll have to peek outside when the baby’s done eating to see what it’s putting holes in. Our neighbor has wood trim in their house and it is riddled with huge holes from last year. I just realized that the woodpecker was probably working through the carpenter bees that live in the trim and swarm each spring. Level upon level of man versus nature. Jack London meets the suburbs.
Comment #59 by ResearcherApril 9th, 2008 at 10:58 amWhat is the big deal? I trap puppies and kittens in plastic bags and beat them to death with a brick all the time. Once you get over the squelching noise, there is nothing to it.
Comment #60 by Nate OmanApril 9th, 2008 at 11:33 amThank you Jack Handy, er I mean sol.:)
Comment #61 by mellocelloApril 9th, 2008 at 11:54 amTrue dat, Nate! It works well with those pesky neighbor kids who throw their stinkin’ Otter Pop wrappers over the fence too.
Comment #62 by solApril 9th, 2008 at 1:40 pmI’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. This is what happens when you’re too many generations away from growing up on the farm.
Reminds me of when I was a kid. The local animal shelter had a after-hours, do-it-yourself euthanasia box. It was a steel box with a door on one side and a hose on the other. Put your stray dog, feral cat, or burlap sack of unwanted innocent puppies in, close the door, slide the hose over your tailpipe and gun the engine for 5 minutes, please dispose of the carcass in the dumpster provided as to leave the bx available for the next patron (easy to follow instructions posted on adjacent fence).
I understand that some people take this stuff very seriously, so I guess I should apologize to Fyrebird. But this whole thread has me in tears. Where do yo live Heather, I’ll come squash the little pests?
Comment #63 by MACApril 9th, 2008 at 1:40 pmYou’re making a heck of a lot of assumptions about me, MAC. I grew up in a semi-rural area with a number of family members who had been farmers. You know what? They wouldn’t have gone around killing sparrows to save bluebirds.
This is about ecology and the fact that in screwing around with it, people have messed it up in the first place, and continuing to screw around with it makes it worse. No one human understands all the interactions going on, which is why Heather caused the problem in the first place.
Say Heather had killed the sparrows before the female bluebird disappeared. What if she was ill, and because of the death of the sparrows, passed that disease along to the male bluebird, and they both died? Then that’s two gone, not one, because we didn’t let nature do its thing and take care of individuals who aren’t fit.
There are always unintended consequences. House sparrows have been around for over 150 years now. While they certainly didn’t evolve to a niche here in the US, the fact that they are still around when most invasive species do no survive to thrive, shows that they’ve adapted to one here. The fact that they are here is an unintended consequence that provides /one/ of a number of factors that put pressure on bluebird populations. It’s ridiculous to even suggest that they’re going to be the cause of bluebird extinction, though, given how long they’ve been here.
People sailed to Hawaii. There were rats on the ships. The rats got loose and started wreaking havoc on native birds. So people introduced snakes to kill the rats. The snakes ate the birds too. So people, in their great wisdom, introduced mongooses to kill the snakes. The mongooses ate the birds too!
Even if it were realistic to kill off house sparrows in the US, they have been established long enough that there would be unintended consequences for such an act. Given that combined with very clear prophetic instruction, killing the sparrows would clearly be wrong. Somehow, I suspect that it’s even less likely that Presidents Kimball and Smith were tree-hugging PETA wannabes than I am.
If you want to save bluebirds, make sure to fight against development in your area that is going to further fragment and destroy what little habitat they have left. Unnecessarily killing animals that you are not going to be eating (which you wouldn’t even if you hadn’t had to go veggie) is not the solution.
Comment #64 by FirebyrdApril 9th, 2008 at 2:47 pm“It’s ridiculous to even suggest that they’re going to be the cause of bluebird extinction, though, given how long they’ve been here.”
I do believe Bluebird Bob would disagree with you on that. But then, he might be on crack.
The fact is, environmetal issues are NEVER simple. And people are clearly the biggest scourge ever to hit the planet.
Comment #65 by The WizApril 9th, 2008 at 5:13 pmThat’s it wiz, I think that we should do away with people, and let the animals have at it on their own.
Comment #66 by moddyApril 9th, 2008 at 5:31 pmI think the wrens got the sparrows. From what I understand, they’re tough little buggers.
Firebyrd, seriously, I hear where you are coming from, but according to what I’ve read about bluebirds, housesparrows DID put them in real danger of extinction, and it is only through direct human intervention of putting up bluebird houses and constantly monitoring bluebird trails that the Eastern bluebird has survived. Yes, loss of habitat played a role, but the numbers of bluebirds (and other native cavity dwellers, like the purple martin) dropped dramatically as a direct result of introduction of the house sparrow, and it happened within the first decade of the introduction. Within 30 years, serious and focus eradication programs were under way, and continue today. The bottom line is that the introduction of a foreign species, as you so aptly pointed out with the Hawaii example, was disatrous, and directly caused by humans. Seems that if we are the cause of the problem, we should at least take some responsibility for the solution. And sometimes solutions are hard, and cruel. But so is nature.
Also, FWIW, my neighbors commented on seeing the bluebirds. My neighbor has been feeding birds for years (I have not, as somebody suggested, been putting seed out for wild birds, mainly because that brings up many other environmental questions), and she exclaimed, “I saw a bluebird today for the first time in YEARS! It was flitting around your yard!” I figure that if people are seeing a bird that hasn’t been seen in YEARS, it seems a good idea to make room for it.
I’m still glad I didn’t have to kill the sparrows, though. See, all that moral conjecture, and the bottome line is I’m still a wuss at heart. I see the logic behind it, I even argue FOR it, and yet I still can’t do it. What a walking contradiction I am.
Comment #67 by Heather O.April 9th, 2008 at 6:16 pmOne more point about habitat loss, and then I’m going to go bed–
With birds, it has been pointed out to me that habitat loss often happens in small doses–trees felled for a housing development, a road widened here, a power line put up there. Thus, providing a kind of habitat in the back yard where a bird can thrive, even a small habitat, can be largely helpful. I’m not ready to put up a 5 mile bluebird trail like Bluebird Bob, but it’s nice to know that my backyard can be just as helpful as, say, fighting a big construction company to stop development.
Comment #68 by Heather O.April 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pmI’m one of the designated beast-slayers in my family. I have a few practical tips if you ever actually decide to kill a small animal by bludgeoning in a bag but are concerned about the psychological difficulties.
1. Double bag. You don’t want to have to clean up a mess.
2. “Corner” the animal. It’s hard to hit a squirming target—and it’s worse for the target.
3. If you can avoid it, don’t use a stick or your foot; drop a brick/cinder block. The worst part for me is the feel of how a tiny body gives when you hit it or step on it. I totally identify with sol’s DH using the car to kill a mouse. Of course, make sure your aim is good and lethal (see #2) but don’t drop the brick from so high that you make a mess (see #1).
On the other hand, I’m not sure if it’s more brutalizing to kill with sterilized, psychological impunity or to kill while confronting the psychological and spiritual realities head on.
Comment #69 by EdjeApril 9th, 2008 at 7:53 pmStarfoxy,
The farm comment wasn’t directed at you specifically, more so the guy who was brought to tears by running over the mouse. What was he supposed to do, rip the little bugger off the glue trap and bandage his then lipless mouth?
Comment #70 by MACApril 10th, 2008 at 8:24 amDangit, I meant Firebyrd, not Starfoxy. Sorry, my bad.
Comment #71 by MACApril 10th, 2008 at 8:26 amI just want to know what killing a bird would illustrate about the word of wisdom in Chronicler’s story. I can’t figure out what your bishop’s point was.
As for the sparrows, I think the point of the prophet quote doesn’t apply here. We certainly need to be compassionate to animals, but I think the spirit of this is more in keeping with rangers who cull off a particular species that’s becomming over-populated than with the spirit of a mean boy with a slingshot killing birds for fun. I think there’s a distinction there in spirit and intent. That’s aside from the fact that many GAs have hunted recreationally.
All the moral ambiguity would be solved if Heather ate the sparrows.
Comment #72 by snow whiteApril 10th, 2008 at 9:10 amProblem … Solution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ortolan_Bunting#Gastronomy
Comment #73 by MACApril 10th, 2008 at 9:28 amOh ugh. Back to the little birds of my twelfth year… Nicotine. Yep, he thought by giving the bird a big bunch of nicotine, we’d never want to smoke. Because you know if it killed a bird that quickly, what was it doing to those smokers out there. The horror! It was the horrifying thing I had ever witnessed and I had a pretty violent childhood.
I picture this in my mind: Like so many little birds hunched over a pair of dice, each taking turns puffing on the butts discovered at the end of the pier.
Comment #74 by chroniclerApril 10th, 2008 at 10:28 amhow on earth did he get the little bird to ingest this nicotine?
Comment #75 by snow whiteApril 10th, 2008 at 2:37 pm*morbid curiosity*
And yeah, wow what a teacher :/
With a dropper. Really creepy.
Comment #76 by chroniclerApril 10th, 2008 at 4:11 pmMAC,
Little hint: Only I can make light of my husband’s tenderness. All others must only see said tenderness as heartwarming and admirable.
Are you male? Because if you are I am promptly going to leave my tender-hearted and gentle husband to come swoon in your bloody life-ending arms. You can euthanize puppies without flinching? Heart be still!
Comment #77 by solApril 10th, 2008 at 6:12 pmsol,
Really, truly, nothing against your husband’s feelings, but you painted such a picture …
Ironically, it was the butchering of an animal that brought my wife and I together, in a long and convoluted way. So, as flattering as the offer is, my bloodied hand is taken.
Comment #78 by MACApril 11th, 2008 at 8:38 amOK, NOW this is the funniest thread of the month.
Comment #79 by JamiApril 11th, 2008 at 11:34 amMAC,
How can you just leave that story untold? Romance over a carcass? Do tell!
Comment #80 by solApril 11th, 2008 at 9:45 pmsol,
…as the steaming entrails ooozed out on to the previously undisturbed whiteness of the snow …
Okay, so it wasn’t exactly like that, add some violent hacking and the odor of scorched animal hair.
Comment #81 by MACApril 14th, 2008 at 1:46 pmso many comments, I bet no one will read mine. But I totally agree for killing the birds. I don’t know that we have killer birds in our yard, but we have annoying squirrels. They have caused so much damage to our garage! And one of this is actually blind in one eye! I see him around ever year still kicking! A one eye blind squirrel would never last in the REAL forest, but in my friendly neighborhood back yard, sure! These squirrels have unnaturally long lives because they have no natural enemies to kill them off the neighborhood. I’d thought many times about trapping and killing them. To me, they are like large mice.
Comment #82 by apple pieMay 7th, 2008 at 3:41 pmOh wait, this post is about birds, huh? Well, go ahead and kill the birds too.