By Melissa Mc
No not Christmas shopping or decorations or caroling or Christmas cookies, but…
I am a full tithe payer. I haven’t always been. It is still a tough doctrine for me (although, Heather’s post earlier this year has really helped). And tomorrow, I may change my mind and keep the tenth after the holiday bills arrive. But today, consider me fully tithed.
However, every year when it’s settlement time, I still have issues with the fact that a half-dozen men know what our family income is each year.
Why does this seem like such an invasion of privacy? I really hate signing my name to a document and then handing it over to a stranger proclaiming that this is 1/10th of our income. I don’t know what they make! Does anyone else have this problem?
actually, I was thinking about that too! Why do all of them know.. and I bet that some of them go ‘they so aren’t paying a full tithing’..
Comment #1 by SunshineDecember 8th, 2009 at 7:07 pmI’ve never gone to tithing settlement. I didn’t know you had to do that.
Comment #2 by Tracy MDecember 8th, 2009 at 7:18 pmI have no problem with paying tithing - I have a huge testimony of it. But I hear you, having people (besides the Lord) know does skeeve me out a little. I take comfort in the fact that there are so many people doing tithing settlement at that time, they probably don’t remember who makes what. Right? RIGHT? And if they start snooping and being judgmental or crazy, well, that’s their fault.
I heard that you can make your donation directly to church headquarters (I thought about doing that once) but then I was told they contacted your bishop and told him about it anyway.
Comment #3 by The WizDecember 8th, 2009 at 7:33 pmYeah, it worries me because I am the snooping/curious type of person. I work for a university where all professors’ salaries are posted online, and I have looked up the salaries of many ward members. If I was the ward clerk I would be interested to know how much everyone made.
I’m skipping tithing settlement in my ward. I might still get roped into going to my husband’s (he’s in a different ward and we pay tithing separately).
Comment #4 by kewDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:02 pmI’d be remiss if I didn’t add this:
As someone on the receiving end of church help right now, I look forward with great joy to the day I can write that big fat check, and don’t care how many clerks know.
Comment #5 by Tracy MDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:03 pmMatt 6:1-4 is really quite clear. Our tithe is to be in secret. I am an assistant ward clerk, and one of those guys who has access to all the tithing information. It bothers the heck out of me, both as a personal privacy concern, and as a “big brother” church mentality. But honestly, can you imagine what tithing would be like if there were no tithing settlement? I bet tithing would be a quarter what it is now. Seriously. Talk about a conflict of interests. =)
Comment #6 by Steven RushingDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:12 pmOne of the best and easiest parts of being an expat is paying our tithing via our credit union’s bill pay. Electronic transfer is a beautiful thing. We are only barely computerized here in Eastern Europe. Consequently, our branch president has limited access to any of our electronic information. I’m sure he could get it, but there isn’t the big ritual with the financial clerk and settling up beforehand by handing over a check.
That being said, my husband has been in bishoprics and worked as a financial clerk before. Tithing settlement is part of his gig. Confidentiality is implied-as if you were only talking to the bishop. Anyone who violates that trust would be accountable to higher authority. Does it mean it never happens? I’m sure it does and has before, though I’ve never known of any cases where tithing status has been gossiped about. My husband, however, will go to his grave knowing branch members’ financial truths, having never shared them. He treats it as sacred information.
Comment #7 by Heather CDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:12 pmI’m at the point where they probably look at our tithing settlement and wonder how we live on that. Heck, I wonder how we live on it (My husband’s a phd student). I honestly think that, like if you go and talk to the Bishop about a confidential matter, that they don’t think about it personally really at all, let alone snoop around to see how much everyone makes.
Comment #8 by ThoraDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:13 pmIt doesn’t bother me at all. Part of it is that tithing is definitely one of those principals that sealed my heart to the gospel. I love the principal of tithing and the blessings it has brought to my life. I remember one Bishop explaining that this is one of the few areas of the gospel where we can be perfect and for that we are promised numerous blessings.
I think there are even greater ‘invasions of privacy’ in being a member than just knowing one’s income. Think about all the Bishop knows about members of his ward–the good and the bad. If you ask for church welfare assistance the Bishop or RS president comes to your home, and actually does an assessment of your needs–we’re talking looking through the cupboards and everything. That takes a great amount of humility on all parties.
I think of the fact that in the gospel we believe that everything we have truly belongs to the Lord. One day we may {and eventually will} be asked to live the law of consecration where we will basically hand over all our property to the church. When I think about the city of Enoch and that there were no poor among them I don’t think it’s because it was a city of doctors and lawyers–but because they probably lived a higher law more than just 10% tithing–and they probably all knew each other’s business.
I hope that doesn’t come off as ‘geeze what’s your problem?’ but I have to be honest and say I really don’t have a problem with it and those are the reasons why and how I look at it.
Comment #9 by MiggyDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:14 pmTracy M, you don’t have HAVE to go to tithing settlement, but if you don’t, the bishop has to guess whether you pay a full-tithe or not (I don’t know the details on where it gets reported). I would assume that right now the bishop knows quite a bit about your finances, so that aspect is probably not a huge deal. For me, I like taking my kids so they can interact with the bishop in a friendly, but formal way. He asks each one of them if they are a full-tithe payer and then they all get a piece of candy from him.
Comment #10 by JESDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:50 pmI’ve never honestly thought about it from that perspective. My dad and my FIL have been in the bishopric in their respective wards, my hubby has been a clerk during tithing time. Never have I heard any of them mention anything about anyone’s income. Ever. Really the only question they ask is, “are you a full tithe payer” not “how much did you make this year”. If it weren’t for the tax code needing documentation for charitable contributions, the church probably wouldn’t need statements written up at tithing settlement.
Comment #11 by mormonhermitmomDecember 8th, 2009 at 8:53 pmI don’t have a problem with it, and I honestly can’t empathize with those who do. This will sound insensitive, but I just really don’t understand what the big deal is.
My husband is the ward clerk in our ward, and although he does have access to all the information you are worried about, I can honestly tell you that (1) he has much more pressing matters on his mind related to his calling; (2) he has much more pressing matters on his mind not related to his calling; and (3) even if his didn’t, he has so many different aspects to his calling that he really couldn’t keep track of the ward members’ incomes if he wanted to (not without putting in a lot of effort and recording everything for his own benefit). And he’s only the ward clerk! Imagine how much more preoccupied the bishop is! (I should also mention that my husband is a math person, so it’s not like he’s just not good with numbers.)
Tithing is counted each week by two people — usually a bishopric counselor and either the ward clerk or the finance clerk. However, counselors don’t do tithing settlement, so those dealing with the end-of-year paperwork are really just the Bishop, the clerk, and the finance clerk. None of them are really paying attention to the dollar amount anyway. They’ll look at it, just to make it doesn’t look like there are too many or too few digits (which would indicate a discrepancy), but they aren’t paying attention to the numbers themselves — that’s your job.
There is a way that you can submit your tithing directly to Church Headquarters via online billpay, but I think you still have to settle with your bishop at the end of the year, and you probably would still get a verification printout handed to you by one of your local leaders.
Comment #12 by JanelleDecember 8th, 2009 at 9:10 pmI’ve also never worried about clerks knowing what 10% of my income is. They see so many statements at that time of year, I doubt they remember any specific one.
Comment #13 by Molly in the Jello BeltDecember 8th, 2009 at 9:13 pmI appreciate that those in charge of this process don’t remember one members statement from another, but it is still extremely personal information that under any other circumstance, I wouldn’t be sharing with anyone (except the IRS). And I have experienced bishops ASK what we make, not just, “did you pay a full tithing.”
Steve, I really appreciate your comments. Thanks.
Comment #14 by Melissa McDecember 8th, 2009 at 9:31 pmIf you’re really concerned about the clerks and Bishopric knowing what your income is, send your tithing to Church HQ in Salt Lake. I know a lot of people that do this and when they go to tithing settlement, their donation statement is blank, because everything went to HQ. It’s still a full-tithe even if it doesn’t go through the ward. Paying it to your ward is just for convenience since all tithing is sent to HQ anyway.
Though fast offerings, if you want them to be used in your local area, have to be paid to your ward. You can pay fast offerings to HQ, but it goes into a general “pot” and doesn’t get sent to your local unit.
Comment #15 by SueDecember 8th, 2009 at 9:43 pmI love tithing. It’s easy to assess. I love knowing that there is at least one commandment that I obey completely. Developing charity is one of those that never ends and is much harder for me.
My husband is a former bishop and pointed out to me that one of the purposes of tithing settlement is to show you that no one is pocketing your offerings and that the accounting is correct.
As for privacy, I would never ask friends how much money they make, but I would not mind answering that question. I guess my privacy filter is not very high.
Comment #16 by Mrs. MDecember 8th, 2009 at 9:48 pmThis is one of those things where I feel like the priesthood being given to men and not bestowed upon women is a blessing. Men, as a rule, don’t gossip or nitpick or make harsh conclusions after 30 seconds the way women do. If women ran tithing settlement then everyone’s reported tithing would be common knowledge. Sorry, but I really do think this.
The fact that the bishop, maybe his counselors, and the ward clerk(s) know doesn’t bother me. Discretion is the name of the game in those callings. Any lack of tact or indiscretion and WAY more people would be judging them than me and my measley tenth.
Comment #17 by AmyDecember 8th, 2009 at 10:08 pmMy husband has been the financial clerk in every ward he’s been in since he joined the church except our present ward (crossing fingers, now!) He told me once that he’s been very blessed that the info doesn’t stay in his memory. He remembers insignificant details but not how much people contribute. It’s a comfort to me to know that he did his calling but didn’t keep tabs on people’s financial info. I guess we can’t assume all clerks are as lucky as my hubby but maybe you can pretend they are!
Comment #18 by LizDecember 8th, 2009 at 10:16 pmThank you, Amy. I completely agree. It’s hard as women to think about these things just because we can’t imagine either: having to see private information like that OR being nervous that the said information will get into the wrong hands. If we think about how many names, numbers, salaries, totals, etc. those leaders (men) see during tithing settlement, it’s got to be over-whelming. And hard to remember….especially every single detail. I’m sure they (men) get surprised at some salaries. I’m sure they (men) get a little weary of always asking. And I’m sure that after this season is done, they (hubbys and dads) are SO grateful to be done!
Tithing settlement makes me a little nervous, too. But my biggest fear is seeing these particular men at a place where I’m spending money. (unfortunately that happens often) And wondering if they think the purchases are smart according to our earnings. But again, I honestly think they don’t remember.
Comment #19 by JodyDecember 8th, 2009 at 10:59 pmI never worried about settlement until a friend of mine had a clerk make several comments to her throughout the year about the amount on her statement. She started paying directly to Salt Lake. But I love tithing, and haven’t had any problems personally with settlement, so I keep going to it.
Comment #20 by ErinMadamLibrarianDecember 8th, 2009 at 11:12 pmAs a ward clerk a few years ago my husband had a lot of different responsibilities. And, as someone said a couple of comments back, the *least* of the things he would be contributions by members. After all, one of his other responsibilities was to transcribe church courts (shudder).
Anyway, I think it is all about trusting the leaders have our best interest in mind. Even the local leaders. To me? So what if the bishop knows how poor we are? I’d like to think that they would only be more impressed when they find out how little we live off of!
Comment #21 by DeniMarieDecember 9th, 2009 at 12:31 amAs one who has sat on the “other side” of the tithing settlement desk, I can tell you there could be 10 people making the exact same amount of money and each and every individual would pay a different amount of tithing.
Truth be told, when all was said and done I really didn’t remember who paid what amount when, much less compare one to the other.
Comment #22 by CordeiroDecember 9th, 2009 at 5:22 amI currently am the ward clerk in a unit with a lot of students. I have access to all of the financial information. In my experience, there have only been two things that I’ve ever really cared to look at in the records. First, do all of the transfers to Church HQ match what I recorded in the deposit. Second, are our fast offering expenditures less than the donations received. Beyond these aggregate measures, I don’t really care. The only time I’ve ever looked at an individual tithing record is when a person has asked me if we processed a check.
I pay so much attention, in fact, that when a person recently asked me to help him update his electronic withdrawal, I was surprised to learn that he didn’t pay tithing through the ward. And with as little as I know about the details of contributions from individuals in the ward, I assure you, I know far more than any member of the bishopric. Keeping track of individual incomes falls very very low on the list of priorities when trying to make a ward function.
Comment #23 by BenjaminDecember 9th, 2009 at 6:15 amTithing settlement makes me uncomfortable for another reason. My DH and I disagree about what exactly a full tithe is. So as to not have a continual WWlll in our marriage I let him write out the tithing check because the paycheck is written out to him. I ask him periodically if it’s been paid, he goes months without paying and pays a huge sum. We got our statement for this year last Sunday. He didn’t even open it, I found it and opened it. He’s only paid tithing twice this year. It makes me sick to my stomach.
It’s supposed to be our money because I’m a stay at home mom. But this tithing situation sure makes it seem as though it’s his.
Comment #24 by AnonDecember 9th, 2009 at 6:26 amJust another thought about your income and the bishop knowing what it is. Everyone in the ward is part of the bishop’s storehouse that the bishop can use to draw upon when there is a welfare need in the ward when there is a need. Knowing how much someone makes helps the bishops determine who he can call upon to help when there is a need. When my husband was Bishop, we lived in an area where the actual bishop’s storehouse was 4 hours away, so knowing which families in the ward could afford to purchase groceries when there was a need was helpful when there was a crisis, especially since we were struggling to get by on a teacher’s salary.
Comment #25 by CDDecember 9th, 2009 at 7:26 amDon’t have a problem with it. I think if you have a TRUE testimony of the law of tithing and the blessings that come from it, you shouldn’t have to worry about who knows what your annual income is. My husband is currently in our bishopric and I can assure you he has NEVER shared anything with me that he shouldn’t. Including ward members incomes or anything else. And I know he never will. I personally feel that when we sustain them in sacrament meeting, we are also agreeing to TRUST them, support them in their calling and not spend all of our energy being suspicious or judgemental of them.
Comment #26 by louandysmomDecember 9th, 2009 at 7:50 amAnd as far as tithing settlement goes, I know that every bishop I have ever had, always comments on how much he likes tithing settlement time…not because he get’s to snoop and find out how much money we make, but because he gets to have a chance to visit with his ward members and find out how they are doing. I also think it is a GREAT way to teach your children how important tithing is to you. What better way to teach than by letting them attend tithing settlement with you and hear you declare yourself a full tithe payer…regardless of what that sum is!
and there’s my 2 cents…or should I say 10!
we just had tithing settlement. the bishop asked if we paid a full tithe, we signed the papers, handed them over, the bishop immediately turned them facedown and mentioned that he doesn’t even look at the numbers.
i would think that if the bishop is asking you what you make in order to compare it to what you paid, something’s up. maybe he’s checking for a mistake or has had problems with settlements in the past.
Comment #27 by anonDecember 9th, 2009 at 8:39 amwe just had tithing settlement. the bishop asked if we paid a full tithe, we signed the papers, handed them over, the bishop immediately turned them facedown and mentioned that he doesn’t even look at the numbers.
i would think that if the bishop is asking you what you make in order to compare it to what you paid, something’s up. maybe he’s checking for a mistake or has had problems with settlements in the past.
Comment #28 by anonDecember 9th, 2009 at 8:39 amI remember one tithing settlement when Reed and I were asked if we had paid a full tithe and we said “Yes”, the Bishop looked at us and said,
“Is that ALL you make?”
Ahem.
At the time I was kinda offended. But later the Bishop explained that he couldn’t believe that was all that the state of Utah was paying their teachers.
Reed works in a profession where anyone could look up on the internet and see exactly what he earns. So, it’s just not that big of a deal for me.
Reed’s done the financial clerking thing before and I know that wild horses couldn’t have drug out any information about people’s finances….if he actually remembered any of it.
But on the flip side I know that there have been those who have left the Church over their financial situation, needing Church assistance, etc. being leaked, which just hurts my heart.
Odds are that sometime in each of our lives we will need some sort assistance. I will forever rejoice in the times I can be on the assisting side because of the sheer gratitude of the times with Parker we’ve needed to be on the receiving side.
Comment #29 by Tammy and ParkerDecember 9th, 2009 at 8:41 amI have a principle I am constantly trying to teach my children. We are all different, our testimonies are different, the way we gain our testimonies is different, and (here’s the kicker) that’s okay!
I have a friend who questions everything and has to gain a testimony of each principle of the Gospel individually. I gained a testimony in my youth of the Atonement and everything else follows for me. Is her testimony deeper and stronger than mine? Do I have have more faith than she does? I don’t think so. We are just different people and maybe we have different “Gifts”.
Heavenly Father doesn’t require us to feel the exact same way about everything. We have different life experiences that affect our perception of everything. Tithing is hard for some not for others. Tithing settlement is hard for some and not for others. Tithing settlement for me? Not so hard.
I have never been concerned to think someone knows my “increase” (note I didn’t say income? That’s because I was taught my tithing was on my increase which can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and that’s okay too.). I have also never attended a tithing settlement where I felt like, to quote the original post “I really hate…handing it over to a stranger.”
I have been very fortunate to only once have a Bishop I felt didn’t really know me, and that was in a ward I had lived in for about 8 years and he was in the ward the whole time. It was very uncomfortable to feel like my Bishop didn’t really know who I was. I don’t remember if we attended tithing settlement with him as we moved to a different state while he was Bishop. There are many reasons why a Bishop or other church leaders may feel like strangers and as a very private person it can be hard to disclose things to them.
If I felt like my Bishop was a stranger to me I think it could be very difficult to attend Tithing Settlement, or any other meeting/interview with him. That doesn’t change the quality or quantity of your testimony. It’s being human and while being human is sometimes akin to the natural man we are supposed to rise above I think the fact that you WENT TO TITHING SETTLEMENT even though it was hard for you IS rising above the natural man.
One last thought on the stranger topic. I keep coming back to the thought that when we are meeting with any of our church leaders in an official capacity they are representing Heavenly Father. So technically I am not declaring my tithing to the Bishop, I am declaring it to my Father in Heaven and he already knows. Kind of like when I pray. He already knows, but He still wants me to tell Him.
Comment #30 by Kathie GDecember 9th, 2009 at 9:26 amBeautiful Kathie. Thank you. Just what I needed.
Comment #31 by Melissa McDecember 9th, 2009 at 9:30 amThen that bishop was being inappropriate. Seriously. His business if full tithe or not, not your W2.
DH has been the financial clerk before, and is now the ward clerk. I ask him needling questions all the time (because I’m snoopy like that too) and he tells me that the only thing he has on his mind when he is doing tithing is to get done as fast as possible so he can get home for dinner. He says it is a matter of sitting at a computer and punching in numbers, and so many numbers get punched that he honestly forgets how much people donate individually. He is more in tune with the overall number that the donations add up to, because that’s the amount he has to enter on the deposit slip for the bank. Individuals–he forgets about.
And it is true that it’s not half a dozen men who know how much you make–it’s really just the bishop and the ward clerk, and possibly an assistant financial clerk. So 3 at most.
And if a ward clerk is leaking info about people’s finances, the clerk needs to be released ASAP. When DH was called to be ward clerk, the bishop asked me to be there too, and I can not tell you how strongly confidentiality was emphasized. Over and over, the bishop talked about the sacred nature of the information DH would now be privy too, and what a responsibility it was to hold it sacred and private. So if a clerk is treating people’s information lightly, he needs to reprimanded and released.
Comment #32 by Heather O.December 9th, 2009 at 9:33 amFor me, tithing is really hard right now. I wish I could get over it…but I can’t. There are a million and one reasons, but simply I get overwhelmed with life and forget to bring my checkbook to church and then a week goes by and the money is gone and I am back to feeling guilty and yucky. I did see my bishop about it once and he was very consoling and comforting, but it is a principle I totally believe but have a hard time practicing. So, I have a question….
Someone mentioned doing it by bill pay. That would work great for me as I could just set it up to take money out whenever the checks come in. Does anyone else do this? Is this hard on the ward? There is no slip? Is that a problem? What is the scoop?
That said, our Bishop does the same ask, sign and flip the paper thing. This year, we are not full, but I have intentions of getting there. It sucks. I feel guilty…but I need to just not get sucked into the crappy feeling and just do a better job, right?
Comment #33 by KatieDecember 9th, 2009 at 9:44 amOK - so I’m with Amy on this, I think that this is a woman thing….we gossip, we say we aren’t,but really discussing anyones business with that person not in attendance…gossip! Not always is it meant to harm/hurt, but still…gossip! This is something I really don’t think men are prone to…at least not in my experience. I too think that this is why men are called as Ward Clerks and not women, women have a tendancy to take a piece of information and run with it… I think some of it is done out of love and concern but I think part is/can be jealousy too. I know I for one don’t want to know what others incomes are…I have a hard enough time knowing what mine is. No matter the amount people make, not everyone manages money effectively….
I don’t enjoy tithing settlement, but I go, because our leaders ask us to. I struggle with paying, even though I DO have a testimony of the gospel principle. I’ve seen it at work in my life. When we don’t pay a full tithe or don’t pay at all, we are greatly affected in the negative…when we pay, our money problems are not nearly as bad….yet, with all those bills to pay, it is still a struggle knowing this is one thing you COULD skimp on….but there is a scripture that states something to the effect that by NOT paying your tithing you are robbing our Father in Heaven…when you look at it that way…well….you make the call….and don’t worry about the bishop or his counselors or the clerk knowing how much you make…Heavenly Father knows and he knows if you are paying a full tithe - ultimately you are only accountable to HIM!
Comment #34 by JenDecember 9th, 2009 at 10:05 am#26 louandysmom- I guess you hit my problem right on, I don’t have a “TRUE” testimony of tithing. It’s a habit, and I would feel guilty for not paying. So I pay a very large amount of money each month to soothe my conscience.
Comment #35 by kewDecember 9th, 2009 at 10:09 amMy hubby has been the clerk in our tiny branch, and even he doesn’t pay attention to what people pay. There are only about 5 families in our branch, so logically you might think it would be easy to keep track, but as someone said earlier, he is just thinking about getting the numbers in and going home. Who paid what this week, who paid what last week, who paid a lump sum 2 months ago…all things he hasn’t got head space for.
I’ve never really worried about tithing settlement until our current Branch President came around. However, as someone said earlier, if he is spending a lot of time worrying about my finances, then he needs more hobbies, and maybe some instruction on what is and isn’t his business. I do think it is about personal accountability, but I get that in a temple recommend interview too. My hubby has had people come to him to fix accounting errors (cheques that aren’t on the final tally, etc.)before, so I think this is a really important part of tithing settlement.
I think there are a lot of things that happen in the church that feel like an invasion of privacy, and I am conscious of how much personal information can get out there (for example, all the insurance information and signatures that I get from every girl who registers to come to Girl’s Camp.) I suppose at the end of the day, that is why tithing and faith are so closely linked.
Comment #36 by LisaCDecember 9th, 2009 at 10:15 amTo me, going to tithing settlement is similar to attending my yearly gynecological exam. While not exactly the highlight of my year, there’s a definite pattern to it. First, there’s always that small but uncomfortable moment when I am first…uh…exposed. Next I remind myself, ‘I am what I am’. Then I hope he stays professional and I’m done for a year.
Comment #37 by ColletteDecember 9th, 2009 at 12:12 pmI am right with you, Melissa. I have many many issues with tithing, as it is paid in our church….but I’m working hard to stay faithful. I’m thankful for your personal honesty on the subject.
I love many of the comments on this post, but don’t love the ones about women being too prone to gossip to ever be in charge of tithing. I don’t agree that one gender has a stronghold on gossip. I don’t love hearing statements that seem to be saying that because of my gender, I am prone to characteristics that make me inadequate to hold certain callings or contribute in certain ways.
Comment #38 by JenDecember 9th, 2009 at 12:31 pmHm. So tithing settlement doesn’t bother me much, because I don’t really care if people know what I earn.
However, I am skeptical about all of these claims that the clerks don’t notice how much people make. If I see numbers, I remember them. Even if I tried not to pay attention, simply seeing the numbers tithing numbers would mean that I would remember how much someone makes. I just wouldn’t be able to turn that particular function of my brain off. I mean, its great if people pretend they don’t notice, but I don’t really buy it. While there certainly are people who don’t capture and process information in the same way that I do, there are lots of people who do.
I once worked in human resources for a summer and was inputting information into a database that gave me access to salary information. When I saw the data, I knew how much people made. It wasn’t an issue of particularly noticing it or not. The information was there and I would see it while doing my job. I just don’t believe that most people can block that processing function in their brain that ties information together.
Comment #39 by MeganDecember 9th, 2009 at 12:38 pmExplained PERFECTLY, Collette! I’m right with ya. There’s blessings to both.
Comment #40 by JodyDecember 9th, 2009 at 12:52 pmMy husband has been in the Bishopric for a couple of years and he really doesn’t know what people make. He helps count tithing a few times a month and does the deposit. And he really doesn’t know or care what other people make. I would guess that most if not all of the men in those callings are the same. So, I wouldn’t worry about all those people knowing what you make.
The Bishop asks if what you pay is a full tithe. You declare yes or no. (It’s actually not called tithing settlement anymore, it’s Tithing Declaration.) If you are honest or not, only the Lord really knows. But it has to be recorded somewhere because the Lord’s house is a house of order.
And I would add, that if you don’t go in and declare, then the Bishop is forced to declare for you. Because they have to send the reports in for the church. Again, because it’s very orderly.
I actually enjoy going in and seeing the Bishop. The reason to do that is more than just to declare your tithing. It’s the one time of year he gets to meet with each family individually and talk to them. Personally find out how they are doing. Every Bishop I have ever known takes that very seriously and really wants everyone to come in. If tithing, or finances, are a struggle, then talk to him about it. That’s what he’s called for.
Comment #41 by AubreyDecember 9th, 2009 at 1:28 pmI just read some of the other comments ad wanted to add for Katie (and anyone else who cares to know):
Comment #42 by AubreyDecember 9th, 2009 at 1:37 pmThere is one lady in our ward who’s work mails a check directly to my husband. It’s just taken out of her paycheck automatically and mailed to him. (He’s 2nd counselor and her home teacher.) I don’t know how billpay works, but I imagine something similar could be worked out if it helps you. Just talk to your Bishop about it.
I don’t care about others learning private details in my life provided I trust that person not to judge me too harshly for it. I’ve never had an issue with that kind of trust with a bishop, but if I did I could see tithing settlement being a lot more difficult.
My father in law is a ward clerk, and each year he helps us with our taxes. Each year he also makes a point of telling me, personally, that he does not tell his wife (my mother in law) how much we make. I really appreciate that because while I really don’t care if my father in law knows how much we make, my mother in law is the kind of person who judges people all the time, especially about financial matters, so I feel better knowing that she doesn’t know those details.
Another thing to think about - if you don’t go to tithing settlement the bishop has to guess whether or not you have paid tithing in full. Personally, I would rather go and make it so the bishop doesn’t have to think about how much we make, because he can take our word for it, then have him have to sit down and look hard at what we’ve paid and then have to guess about how much we make.
Comment #43 by KatieDecember 9th, 2009 at 2:02 pmI always learned that tithing settlement was only a teeny tiny bit about money and mostly about being able to stand up before God’s judge in Israel and say you are fulfilling a part of your covenant relationship. It is also to make sure your name and the names of your children are recorded in the Lord’s records (that’s the part where you check your church records with the clerk while you wait for your turn with the bishop). There is something about verbally declaring the status of your covenants that is powerful.
Also, about remembering numbers, I think it’s a blessing of the stewardship bestowed on these men in these callings that so long as they are trying to focus on the Spirit, they will not remember what is not needful for them to remember. But then, on the scale of confidences that the Bishop needs to hear, money seems really low on the scale (addictions, sins, abuse etc, to name a few).
Comment #44 by angie fDecember 9th, 2009 at 2:06 pmMy problem isn’t so much with tithing settlement, but with paying tithing itself. I want to have a testimony of it, but I don’t. When we’ve paid it in the past we have just gotten farther and farther behind on our bills. We haven’t paid at all this year because my husband is out of a job and if we pay it we won’t be able to pay all of our bills. Our Bishop has offered to give us groceries from the Bishop’s storehouse so we can afford to pay our tithing, but I have such a hard time accepting hand-outs from the ward. Maybe it’s a pride thing, but we’ve been counseled to be self-sufficient, which we are, except we can’t pay tithing on top of it. I want to be a full-tithe payer and I want to have a testimony of it, but I don’t. How do I gain that, when it just feels like things get harder rather than easier? My husband has been out of a job for 2 years and we paid it for the first year…no blessings just a lot more financial stress. HELP…how do I gain the right attitude and a testimony?
Comment #45 by AnonDecember 9th, 2009 at 2:47 pmWhen I went to hand our summary to the bishop for the box-checking/signing portion of the day he refused it. “Nope. I don’t need to see it, I just need to know if it’s a full tithe.” Before then it had never occurred to me to be concerned about it….but him declining the peek made me realize how many people know how broke we are. Eh well - maybe they admire us for being able to make it on that income eh?
Comment #46 by mimiDecember 9th, 2009 at 3:56 pmI’m not sure where you get “half a dozen men”. I’ve served twice in a bishopric (as a counselor), I’ve served twice as a ward clerk and at least once as a membership clerk. In all that time, I’ve never seen someone else’s tithing settlement statement. Generally speaking, it’s just the bishop and the financial clerk who see it, and as noted above, there are ways of avoiding even that.
On the other hand, I have processed plenty of tithing envelopes, so honest compels me to say that I often had some indication of how much tithing a particular person or family was paying on specific occasions. On the other hand, every time I write out a tithing check or other donation, I know someone else is going to see it. I’m not particularly concerned. ..bruce..
Comment #47 by bfwebsterDecember 9th, 2009 at 4:41 pmbfwebster:
Comment #48 by Melissa McDecember 9th, 2009 at 4:48 pmI stand corrected — honestly, having never served in a bishopric or as a ward clerk — I had no idea who has access to my tithing info — bishopric/clerks/anyone who has access to the computer. So, if it’s one or two people, thank you for the clarification. I still have issues with them having that knowledge, when I think it’s highly personal and something I don’t even discuss with my parents. Additionally, until now, I didn’t know I could send in my tithing directly to SL. I think I will start.
Oh, and as for tithing settlement itself — on more than one occasion, I’ve waited until the time slots are largely full, then stuck my head in the bishop’s office while the door was open and said, “Oh, by the way, we’re full tithe payers.” In each case, the bishop didn’t seem to mind, given how generally swamped he was. ..bruce..
Comment #49 by bfwebsterDecember 9th, 2009 at 4:49 pmDoes anyone know HOW specifically to pay directly to SLC?
Comment #50 by The WizDecember 9th, 2009 at 5:20 pmKatie (#33) and others who asked about bill pay:
I have all my bills set up through my credit union’s online free bill pay. Including tithing. I just have that check sent to my home address. It’s made out to my ward, but the address is mine. When the check arrives in the mail, I fill out a tithing slip and hand it to a bishopric member. I do the same for fast offering. When the deacons come around, I hand them an envelope with the bank-generated check.
I love this arrangement for many reasons. All the benefits of auto-pay, but I didn’t have to figure out how to send it to SLC. Because I’m lazy, and I don’t particularly care who sees my tithing slips.
Comment #51 by AhnaDecember 9th, 2009 at 5:43 pmKatie - I’ve never tried automatic bill pay for tithing, but I do get a stack of tithing envelopes, and pay tithing the same day I sit down with the rest of the bills, and then I mail it to the bishop. Otherwise, two or three envelopes build up before I get them turned in, and that’s a big hit on the bank account all at once.
anon #45, who is wondering how to gain a testimony of tithing. I would recommend going through the scriptures looking for specific scriptures about the Lord’s generosity and abundance, and praying about them. Not just the Malachi scripture about the windows of heaven, but the scripture about clothing the lilies of the field, and “there is enough and to spare” and things like that. I’m working on a testimony of a different principle, and it’s helpful to study the scriptures that assure me that the Lord really is trustworthy in this area where I’m struggling. I frequently recite them to the Lord in prayer, and for some odd reason, that helps a lot.
Comment #52 by Molly in the Jello BeltDecember 9th, 2009 at 6:24 pm#34 Kew - If you think about it, that is how our testiomonies of a lot of things start. We do it because we are supposed to (and sometimes feel guilty if we dont!). Take callings in the church for example. You may not have a testimony of the cub scout program and think it is the biggest time waster in the world, but when you get called as a Cub Scout leader, you feel too guilty to refuse. Imagine your suprise when over time as you serve and PRAY for help to understand your calling and it’s importance, you suddenly find yourself gaining a testimony of how important it really is. My advice would be to keep paying your 10% and then pray like crazy for that testimony to come
I think actually PAYING your tithing is a pretty good start!
Comment #53 by louandysmomDecember 9th, 2009 at 7:15 pmTo send your tithing directly to SLC, fill out a tithing slip (the same one you use when you pay to your ward), make the check payable to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and mail it to:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Comment #54 by SueDecember 9th, 2009 at 8:01 pmAttn: Donations
50 E North Temple, 15th Floor
Salt Lake City, UT 84150
Thanks ladies! I thank you for your help. I will try the bill pay check to myself. I did do it one time to our Bishop when I was on vacation and didn’t hear anything, so I think it went ok, but I wasn’t sure. I think it will help me get back on track with it. I am trying to get more committed to it and get back on track.
#45. I think you just have to start and pay what you can. I used to pay gross and then needed to go to net. When I miss a payment, I try to do a little bit. I went to my Bishop in tears, feeling so guilty and depressed about the whole thing. He was so gracious and comforting. He actually addressed it as more of a matter of priesthood blessings between me and my husband, more then having a debt to repay. He just said to start where I am. I have to do that often. When I mess up, I have to repent and start over again. I hope Heavenly Father understands that. I think he does. I am with you though and if I could, I would be in some sort of tithing support group with you. It is hard to justify what to me is two weeks of groceries. I haven’t had any miracles either…other then we have not had unemployment, our home is warm, we have lights and we have food. So, I have been blessed. I am just a really bad financial planner. That is my problem. I am hoping Heavenly Father helps me to do better so it is not a problem anymore.
Comment #55 by KatieDecember 9th, 2009 at 8:41 pmFor the first time (well, going on almost 2 yrs) I am not a full tithe payer. It kills me, but I cna’t shake some serious issues with our ward… I know.. I know– but rumor has it we’ll have a new bishopric soon. YAY!!
BTW, I also have issue with people knowing what we make (rather don’t make) because we live in such a small town where everyone knows everything. Literally.
Comment #56 by MelzieDecember 9th, 2009 at 11:01 pmI thought I would leave one little tidbit… As you know from my comment way above, I am uncomfortable with the way we do tithing. But there really isn’t any reason that it has to be that way… Nothing is stopping anyone from putting cash in an envelope with a tithing slip, no name, and sliding it under the bishops door or mailing it to his house without a return address. If you don’t want folk knowing your business, they don’t have to. =)
Comment #57 by Steven RushingDecember 10th, 2009 at 3:16 amI have never really been concerned that anyone else would know how much I’ve pd. It just didn’t bother me. We moved 2 1/2 yrs ago from the east coast to pretty much the west coast. I’m from Utah & yes, I grew up in the church. My gripe is that I detest going to tithing settlement (& didn’t go this year) because my Bishop tells me 2 - 3 times @ least, that I don’t have to pay tithing or fast offering since my husband had @ one time forbidden me to pay (he’s since rescinded that statement although I still only pay tithing on our household account money). I find it demeaning to constantly be told that what I’m doing isn’t worthwhile. I’m pretty sure that isn’t what the Bishop means but when I try to tell him he just repeats that I am not required to pay tithing. Um, yeah, I am! If I want those blessings then I’d darned well better be doing what I can to earn them.
I’m actually praying that my husband will get a job that requires him to travel 100% of the time so that we can move. As in RIGHT NOW!
Comment #58 by Sues2u2December 10th, 2009 at 8:37 amThanks for all the thoughts- especially about less-traditional ways of paying. I like the idea of putting it on bill pay and sending it to my home.
There is the tax side of things too - getting that statement right is important for honesty in paying taxes.
Comment #59 by Anon from #24December 11th, 2009 at 6:25 amIf you want to pay your tithing by electronic withdrawal, check out this page.
Comment #60 by BenjaminDecember 11th, 2009 at 6:28 amSeriously? Doesn’t that, like, make financial clerks’ heads explode?
Comment #61 by Heather O.December 11th, 2009 at 10:25 amMy husband is a bishop currently and has WAY more to worry about (church and family related) than what people make. I have never been asked by any bishop what my income was. That is not an appropriate question. The principal of tithing has nothing to do with the monetary value but a principal of faith on our part to do all that the Lord asks of us. When we, as members, pay our tithing we are entitled to the blessings the Lord referred to in Malachi. Those blessings don’t always come in a monetary form but could be having a healthy and happy family. I, for one, look forward to having so many blessings poured upon me that I won’t have enough room to receive them. I think it’s important for me to say how much our Bishop’s love ALL of their members and again do not care how much we make but that we’re following the Lord’s commandments. I see, firsthand, how much Bishop’s take on, both spiritually, emotionally, and temporally. They love us!!!!
Comment #62 by joyDecember 11th, 2009 at 4:07 pmIt’s fascinating to read all the different thoughts on the subject. My husband has a strong testimony of tithing. I do not. This year because of financial miscommunications and heck yes, we are like 5 million dollars in debt, and I totally cringe to see All That Money going to the church, but it’s not too bad because I don’t really think about.
Until today, or like two years ago, when we are behind in our tithing and my husband wants to cut back on everything and scrimp and put off paying credit cards to make up for the tithing we missed this year. To me that just seems wrong. On the surface we look like we are doing really well financially, but we aren’t, and I worry about the bishop thinking that we’re all rich and just lazy with our money when really it’s that we have a buttload of bills to pay, plus we need to eat, and my health has sucked the big one this year so we have at least 10 different medical bills that if they aren’t already in collections, will be soon.
So that is my problem. I HATE that we have to “make up” tithing. That really, really bothers me. I wish we could just start over new every year. But two bishops now have just said to make it up, and so that’s what we do because DH is in charge of the money. And I grit my teeth and try not to think about tithing until next year at this time. Argh.
Comment #63 by KrisDecember 13th, 2009 at 11:17 pmI am 54 years old, an active member my entire life; my father and my husband have served in Bishoprics, as ward clerks, and as Bishop; I have never heard of anyone being concerned about the Bishop knowing how much money they make! I don’t think this is a tithing or tithing settlement problem, so much as a supporting-local-leaders issue. You know what the Bishop brings home from tithing settlement? Tons of goodies and treats, and a feeling of gratitude for his faithful ward members.
Comment #64 by LauraDecember 15th, 2009 at 9:27 amI have been a full tithe payer for most of my adult life, but have only paid on what I make since my husband was not a member. Since he has since been baptized, we have paid tithing on all of our earnings this year, and it has really been a hardship. But we really have had blessings (and some of those we have to look hard to find!) that I know have come because we are TRYING OUR HARDEST to live the gospel on all levels.
We’ve had a hard few years financially, so this has been a real testimony litmus test.
Comment #65 by AnnieDecember 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm