By Melissa Mc

1. 1-yes. You’re supposed to open your mouth and talk to people.
   2-if it’s in public I think it’s okay. We would start talking to men while street contacting if the Spirit prompted.
   3-probably not.
   4-Whoa, that is one big bad misinformation. I don’t know.
   5-What was most inappropriate, talking to her in the first place or the Latin stuff? I don’t think the talking is going to change. But hopefully missionaries can somehow get more training about other religions that will prevent that kind of embarrassment.

   Comment #1 by Emily M.February 18th, 2010 at 5:57 pm

2. 1) absolutely
   2) see 1; the only restriction I knew of was not going inside a residence where only a woman was present
   3) hm…, I know my mission president wouldn’t have accepted that fear as an excuse
   4) Just an idea, but I think he may not have been referring to mass being said in Latin, but to the idea (that MANY naive young missionaries have) that most members of other churches don’t REALLY understand the doctrines their churches teach. I think because the doctrines seem strange to a lot of young missionaries, and they do meet a lot of people who don’t fully understand their churches, but just go b/c of tradition or family, etc., that they begin to think that our church is the only doctrine that really makes sense, and therefore, EVERYONE else must be really confused.
   5) Not a whole lot, unfortunately. There should be more of a focus on respecting those who genuinely believe in their church and politely decline further discussion.

   Comment #2 by MeganFebruary 18th, 2010 at 6:27 pm

3. So my take on it is that the missionaries were being bold…and your friend didn’t like it. It can be uncomfortable for you as her friend to have to defend their boldness, but that’s really what they’re here to do–proclaim the gospel in a non threatening but unapologetic manner. I didn’t go on a mission, but even the couple of times I went tracking with the Sisters when I was older I remember sorta of being taken aback by their doorstep approach…something along the lines of “Hi we’re here to share the message of the restored gospel and the hope of Jesus Christ…” or something like that I thought, “Woa! We’re just going to come out and say it like that?” I was sorta thinking about being more subtle…but then I realized No–this is what they’re here to do. To proclaim boldly, without hesitation and with making apologies. It was eye opening.

   With that being said… I also remember a distinct incident my first Christmas home from college where my mom invited the Elders and a non-member friend over for dinner. The Elders were the most immature, obnoxious and least effective missionaries I had EVER seen. They completely embarrassed us as ‘the Lord’s representatives’ and I know my mom’s non-member friend was super unimpressed with their general demeanor–not to mention who could take anything they said on a spiritual level. These guys had what ever missionary dreams of–an investigator at a member’s home at Christmas time and they blew it. Another eye opener… just because you’re a trained missionary, doesn’t mean you can’t act on your own free will in an obnoxious and un-missionary and un-Christ like manner.

   Comment #3 by MiggyFebruary 18th, 2010 at 6:51 pm

4. not to mention who could take anything they said on a spiritual level.

   should read

   not to mention anything the said on a spiritual level.

   Comment #4 by MiggyFebruary 18th, 2010 at 6:52 pm

5. I think it shows poor judgement for the missionaries to approach a single woman in a parking lot, but it was probably just more of a case where they didn’t think through how their actions could affect the reception of their message (something I find a lot with missionaries, actually.) I haven’t been on a mission, either, but I see missionaries, elders mostly, make social blunders like this all the time. I don’t know if it’s because they look at proclaiming the gospel as paramount and ignore social cues, or if they just can’t read the social cues because they’re 19, or both.

   We had an elder in our ward go and visit a NO CONTACT family during their open house, when they were trying to sell their home, i.e, MOVING and under extreme stress. The elders decided, I’m sure, that an open house meant an open invitation for them to show up, and they did so at a time when the family, who were already on the NO-CONTACT list, were in absolutely no position to talk to them, and were acutely embarrassed and upset that they chose a time when their home was open to the public to make it look like they were associated with a church they had gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to sever ties with.

   This family didn’t talk to us for months afterwards, and refused to let their children play in our home. It took months of kindness and patience on our part for them to be our friends again and to gain their trust again. It was, to say the least, a disaster. So yeah, elders sometimes are just plain oblivious.

   Comment #5 by Heather O.February 18th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

6. Sadly, I don’t think they teach ettiquette in the MTC. They didn’t when I was there–just the language and gospel principles. They also don’t teach much about other religions either. Most elders (and sisters) are pretty young and immature–a lot of members and nonmembers don’t realize that. They’re only human. I did get a bit more cultural instruction by going to the MTC in the country I served in, simply because all the teachers were natives.

   I also don’t see what was wrong with approaching her–it was a public place and they weren’t saying anything lewd or anything like that. When I was a missionary we did a lot of street contacting in plazas and such, and would approach everyone who came by regardless of gender or apparent marital status. As sisters, if we got a single male who was interested we would pass their info along to the elders for further teaching.

   Comment #6 by FoxyJFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:02 pm

7. I don’t know what the MTC could teach to overcome the gaffes in this incident. They should have known better than to approach a woman in that situation (although if their mission had a rule against it, it would quickly be interpreted to mean, I think, that it’s a sexual danger to the missionaries rather than a perception of threat on the woman’s part).

   The MTC can’t make up for the obliviousness of 19-year-olds to wider culture. Even if somehow they taught a class in Catholic culture at the MTC (and I don’t think I’d trust the 20-something elders who teach everything at the MTC — talk about Catholicism, and it’s almost certain at some point to degenerate to “whore of Babylon” talk), but even if they did teach about Catholicism, that wouldn’t prevent the same missionary from saying something just as culturally stupid to a Baptist or Jew or Muslim or atheist or immigrant or Democrat or Asian or child in a wheelchair or blind man or elderly woman or burn victim or any other variation of mankind.

   In part it’s the parents’ fault for not exposing their kids to broader culture, or at least teaching them how to behave around people who are different.

   And the first thing I did when I got my mission call to a Catholic country was to attend Saturday night mass every week and take Catholic instruction — to the point of having the equivalent of a baptismal interview with the parish priest — so I wouldn’t make the embarrassing assumptions about French Catholic beliefs displayed here.

   Comment #7 by Ardis ParshallFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

8. I agree with Heather, there are plenty of oblivious missionaries. We could share stories all day long about the moronic elders/sisters who made huge social blunders in attempting to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

   I find this post upsetting though for a lot of reasons. First of all, I do not think that it is the responsibility of the teachers at the MTC to teach “social cues” to the elders and sisters. That is something that needs to be taught at home and each one of us needs to make sure that our sons and daughters are prepared and understand how to talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ with love, respect and authority.

   Additionally, I do not think that a 19 year-old boy being ignorant to the rituals and practices of other religions constitutes a huge social blunder. My husband was asked just today by his 60 year-old co-worker if Mormons dance. Instead of being offended, he answered her question and used it as an opportunity to share a little bit more about our faith. Missionaries sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ need to be respectful of other faiths, but I would not expect them to know how all faiths operate in practice. And again, as a parent, I think that is our responsibility to teach about other religions.

   Finally, the only regret that I have from mission service is that I wasn’t more bold. That I didn’t take every single opportunity to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That I allowed my fear of making social blunders stifle me and cause me to walk away from situations that may be a bit awkward. Life is different after the mission, and yes we as members sometimes have to “clean up” after an awkward missionary encounter. But we should not apologize for missionaries being bold and talking to everyone they can about the Gospel.

   Comment #8 by betseyFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:11 pm

9. I really don’t see why this exchange was so offensive to you. First of all, you said that your friend was not alarmed. If they approached her in a manner that was not alarming, how was it inappropriate?

   Secondly, although the missionary was misinformed, I don’t think that what he said was offensive in any way because (1) mass was conducted by the church in latin until just 40 years ago (after many centuries) and (2) some catholic sects still conduct mass in latin. Here’s a website if you are interested in attending one. There are many to choose from in every state. http://web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm. I’ve had missionaries of other religions approach me and ask about our practice of polygamy. I don’t take offense because (1) polygamy was practiced by the church until just 100+ years ago and (2) some mormon sects still practice polygamy. I also don’t get offended when people, including other missionaries, think that we’re not christian.

   These kids are just 19 and 21 years old. Cut them some slack. They can hardly be expected to know much about any religion, let alone the details of all religions (and this is just a detail). I think the best approach would be to tell your friend, “Well, they’re just 19 years old. Sometimes it shows around the edges a little bit. I hope that they were otherwise nice to you.”

   Comment #9 by RichardFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:16 pm

10. Missionaries get taught to talk to everyone at every time and in any situation. Any failure to open your mouth is a failure of faith. In hindsight, that’s kind of extreme and obviously leads to some inappropriate behavior, but that’s what we were taught.

    I used to contact people in grocery stores (in Europe) when it was too cold to stay outside and try to talk to people. Cuz, you know, it wouldn’t be faith and we wouldn’t be blessed if we went home because it was four degrees outside.

    Once, I told a new comp to not talk about eternal marriage when we went to visit a member family. They had marriage stress, and did not want to be sealed. My comp lectured them on eternal marriage. The wife ended up in tears. But, you know, tact would be considered a lack of faith.

    Faith and obnoxiousness are closely linked in the MTC.

    On the other hand, you also get the stories where you didn’t want to say anything, decided you ought to, and they turned out to be the golden contact you’d been searching for your entire mission. I’ve got a couple stories like that too.

    Comment #10 by Melinda in the Jello BeltFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:21 pm

11. Sorry about this line: “Faith and obnoxiousness are closely linked in the MTC.” That’s over-the-top and inappropriate. I shouldn’t have put in my post. I’d delete if if I had the option.

    Comment #11 by Melinda in the Jello BeltFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:23 pm

12. Melinda, that was actually my favorite line of your whole comment. Because it’s so true. There is such a pressure on these missionaries, I imagine, that they constantly feel like they need to be proclaiming, proclaiming, proclaiming, no matter who they offend or frighten. And in some ways, I suppose that’s why we have missionaries who live in sort of a fake social bubble–they CAN dust their feet at people who don’t hear the message, because they aren’t the ones who have to live next door to them. They aren’t the ones who have to be delicate and compromise and observe social niceties. They aren’t there to be liked, they are there to be noticed and heard, and, well, sometimes that’s just obnoxious!

    I once had a recently RM tell me he struggled with this the most when he got back from his mission. He was bold with his non-member boss, and realized that, oooops, he had to work with this guy the next day, and had to dial it back to something more appropriate in the workplace if he wanted to keep his job. It was definitely an adjustment he had to make, the idea that you still have to have meaningful interactions with people who don’t believe your message of the Gospel, and how to manage that with tact.

    Comment #12 by Heather O.February 18th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

13. A few thoughts:
    1. Your friend got offended because the missionary didn’t know Mass isn’t in Latin? Seems a little extreme to me. Honestly, how can EVERYONE know EVERYTHING about EVERY religion out there? I agree with Betsey that missionaries need to be respectful of other faiths, but that they don’t need to know every nuance of them.

    2. The missionary did sort of go about it all in an awkward way so I understand the whole awkwardness thing. But aren’t we all awkward at times? No? Just me then?

    3. I don’t mean to be mean, but it seems like you only think what they did was inappropriate because your friend was offended and that put you in a weird situation. If your friend had come to you laughing, would you have still thought it was inappropriate?

    4. Ardis- Again not trying to be mean…I know why you went to Catholic mass and had instruction and went so in depth with knowing about the religion “so you wouldn’t make embarrassing assumptions about French Catholic beliefs”– but don’t you think that that time for you, and for all missionaries, would be better spent increasing faith and spirituality through study of your own religion?

    Just thoughts, not meant to offend.

    Comment #13 by ErinFebruary 18th, 2010 at 8:55 pm

14. LOL…and this is EXACTLY why I will be FOREVER grateful that I served a Chinese-speaking mission. By the time I knew enough language to really ask terrible questions, and teach crazy half-truths…I had been a missionary long enough to know better. (About 9 months. Heh. Before that? “Jesus loves you. Pray. Read your scriptures.” was about the best I could do.)

    Comment #14 by Aunt LoLoFebruary 18th, 2010 at 9:17 pm

15. This is a difficult topic for me, having happily served a mission in which boldness was paramount, and in which chasing people down the street or cornering captives on streetcars in San Francisco who were obviously not interested, to squeeze in one more GQ, was how we spent much of our time. And I say happily, because I had no problem being bold.

    Fifteen years later and older, though, I am disturbed by the pride which fueled much of the boldness… not any sort of a “good pride”, but the pride which really is enmity. I can’t really comment on Melissa’s friend’s reaction, not having been there, but genuine ignorance should not offend, and should be expressed by the simple question “Are your masses in Latin? Do you understand them?” On the other hand, if the questioning stems from the belief that other churches don’t have the complete gospel so how could they possibly make sense of their nonsensical doctrines, I think she is understandably offended.

    There is the boldness of not being ashamed of the gospel, and that is something beautiful. But so much of the time, in my mission at least, under the particular leadership at the time, it was mixed with such a sense of superiority, I find it distressing to look back on. The mere thought of any 19-year-olds even thinking they are worthy to dust off their shoes is just galling. And yet, with such a superior gospel to proclaim, we still contorted ourselves with all these crazy tricks to get people baptized before they had a chance to think twice and back out, rushing them through lessons and interviews and giving them no opportunity for agency to run amok - which doesn’t seem to show much faith in the gospel itself. My husband calls it selling steak knives (and he served in the same mission).

    I realize not all mission presidents allowed such a tone to be set in their missions - my 2nd, whom I served under for the last 6 months, was vastly different from the first. For the record, I loved my first president, and he was a good man. But 19-year-old are very susceptible to pride as a motivating force. And unless there is true humility, there will always be people who are justifiably offended, and for whom we may be more a stumbling block than any sort of messenger of peace.

    Comment #15 by Joy TFebruary 18th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

16. Quite frankly, given the fact that missionaries who are in the MTC to serve in the U.S. only stay for a couple of weeks, I can see that they would have no clue that Catholic mass is not spoken in Latin. And it is rather ridiculous to assume that all missionaries would understand other relgious traditions perfectly, given the frequent misunderstandings that supposedly intelligent people, including the media, make about our own religion.

    And could you imagine other young men of similar ages doing any better in the situation?

    The purpose of the MTC is to make sure the missionaries are prepared to teach the lessons. Social training is really the responsibility of the parents.

    My husband taught Swedish at the MTC for 3 years and the lessons were primarily focused on language and teaching the gospel. They did have one night on culture. My husband did interject cultural knowledge at appropriate intervals. This was pre-Preach My Gospel, so things may have changed.

    I don’t know Ardis at all, but given her insightful comments about gospel subjects on other blogs, I kind of think she was probably pretty well-prepared spiritually for her mission. It doesn’t hurt a person to be exposed and to understand other relgions and their cultural and spiritual traditions. That type of understanding can lead to better understanding of one’s own beliefs. (Of course, that only helps if you have spent enough time studying your own religion.)

    Comment #16 by Tiffany W.February 18th, 2010 at 10:01 pm

17. Melissa, I think it would be appropriate to talk to the Elders and relay the message that their approach wasn’t appropriate and that they should rethink how they approach people, particularly women. Bottom line, it was too aggressive and they need to be sensitive to how such an approach can be viewed by women. And you probably should tell them that mass is NOT recited in Latin.

    Comment #17 by Tiffany W.February 18th, 2010 at 10:04 pm

18. Lets see where to start, I’ve been watching figure skating…yeah we won the gold in skating!!

    In today’s world of safety concerns, yes, I think it’s inappropriate for a woman, who is alone, to be confronted/approached in a parking lot.

    Erin: Yes, even if she thought it was funny, someone else may not have. And, yes, I still think it’s inappropriate.

    Richard: yes, they are 19-21 yrs old — but that always seems to be the excuse when something like this happens — when I was that age my parents held me accountable for the bone head things I did or said — and I’m still held accountable. I thought it was a bone head comment.

    Comment #18 by Melissa McFebruary 18th, 2010 at 10:18 pm

19. 1. Pretty much anywhere is free game, though I think that particular spot is tacky.

    2. In a public place, yes.

    3. At 19 years old, probably not. Additionally, the nametages stand out a little more than just two random guys in suits.

    4. In the MTC, missionaries are taught LDS doctrine and practices. They aren’t tutored in other religions. If they don’t know that mass hasn’t been in Latin since Vatican 2 in the 1960’s, then it’s probably because they were born in 1990 and their parents haven’t been to mass since the 1960’s, if ever.

    5. They’re 19 years old. Give them a break.

    Comment #19 by JanelleFebruary 18th, 2010 at 10:25 pm

20. Tiffany:
    We’ve already put the wheels in motion to find out to what ward these missionaries are assigned. F did not get the names off their tags. They claimed not to know us, so I am assuming they are from the other ward. And if you knew my friend, she’s not condeming them for doing their work, however, as someone as knowledgeable as she is about her religion as well as others (including ours) she had greater expectations from our missionaries. It was just a bad encounter all the way around.

    Comment #20 by Melissa McFebruary 18th, 2010 at 10:33 pm

21. *FACEPALM*

    Comment #21 by AzucarFebruary 18th, 2010 at 10:42 pm

22. So I came here to read something while watching the games and make sure I didn’t get any Olympics spoilers…so, THANKS MELISSA!

    Comment #22 by AzucarFebruary 18th, 2010 at 10:48 pm

23. Azucar:
    I’m so sorry!!! I was so excited I couldn’t help myself!! And I had to explain my absence from replying.

    Comment #23 by Melissa McFebruary 18th, 2010 at 11:08 pm

24. Well if the missionaries had member referrals to visit, they wouldn’t have to tract in a parking lot!(ohhh, burrnnn:) )
    I think that they knew that they weren’t a threat, so they figured that everyone else would know too.
    Now, Melissa, if I remember correctly, you live outside of Utah, yes? Like, maybe, Minnesota or Massachusetts? (maybe I just saw your M name and associated it with M states?) anyway, if you are, then your missionaries were probably from Utah. I live in NH and all of our missionaries are Utah or Arizona. And they are sheltered to say the least. I grew up the only Mormon in my school, so I know quite a bit about other religions, because all of my friends were other religions. I went to Catholic and Methodist summer camps (I know all of the catholic prayers), my sister was a counselor at a Jewish camp (she can even pray in hebrew!). We had plenty of opportunities to learn about other religions, which I’m guessing these missionaries did not.
    That being said…oh my goodness, it is not an obscure fact that catholic mass is in english!! I would not think you’d have to learn this in the MTC or anywhere else, I just figured it was general knowledge!
    OK, i think I’m going on too long about the same point. Expose yourself and your children to other religions, it will make for less awkward encounters later in life!

    Comment #24 by JuanhijoFebruary 19th, 2010 at 7:03 am

25. speaking of awkward encounters…the first year i went to catholic camp, I was 8. At the end of the week they have a mass, and they asked everyone who was a member to come up and recieve the sacrament (the kids who hadn’t received communion just got a blessing from the priest) I went up and got my wafer and started walking away…and the priest FOLLOWED ME! He asked me if I had been baptized into the church, and I said that I was baptized in MY church…he took my wafer away:(
    A lesson better learned at 8 than 18!

    Comment #25 by JuanhijoFebruary 19th, 2010 at 7:06 am

26. I’ll echo what other people said: it’s the parents’ responsibility to teach the gospel, other religions, and social tact.

    Same-language missionaries only spend 2-3 weeks in the MTC, FYI.

    Comment #26 by SilverRainFebruary 19th, 2010 at 7:34 am

27. One of the great comforts to me on my mission (I was 24, had been working for years, was experienced in social settings and still made my fair share of gaffes) was some advice my brother wrote to me. “If the Lord wanted perfect missionaries he would have sent angels, not you.” I’ve been home from my mission now for more years than I care to think about, and I still make plenty of mistakes in dealing with other people, not because I am arrogant, or because I don’t care about them, but just because I’m human and I goof. We all do. That’s why the Lord tells us to be patient with and forgive each other.

    I would guess those missionaries are perfectly aware they messed up, and are probably beating themselves up over it. I can still remember many of the mistakes I made back then, and they still hurt. I cared so much about what I was doing that it tore me apart to think that my mistake might keep someone from all the blessings they could have had if I hadn’t offended them. I spent a lot of time back then praying for the Lord to smooth over any problems my weaknesses might have caused. (And I still do, since I still screw up regularly.)

    When I make mistakes, my hope is that someone will say something to me, but gently, not harshly. And I hope they won’t condemn me, or think of me as stupid or rude, just fallible like any other human being and needing just as much patience and love as anyone else.

    Comment #27 by JenFebruary 19th, 2010 at 8:39 am

28. just to clear up, while most Catholic masses are conducted in English, there are a few congregations that still meet for a Latin sermon.

    Comment #28 by KrystalFebruary 19th, 2010 at 8:52 am

29. I think some people are missing the point of the elders questioning her about understanding mass. It doesn’t matter if they should have known it wasn’t in Latin or not, it still comes across as them insulting her intelligence for sitting through church services she doesn’t even understand. An earlier comment suggested they say, “Is your Mass in Latin? Do you understand it?” which is a much better than what they actually said, but still, where were they going with that anyway? I don’t think criticizing another person’s religion is a good opening for teaching. I would hope they at least touch on that in the MTC.

    Comment #29 by KimarieFebruary 19th, 2010 at 9:23 am

30. Wow, these are high expectations for 19 - 21 year old men. I’d hope that most people who encounter our missionaries are at least impressed that they are devoting their time to God instead of attending underage college drinking parties or worse.

    Like your friend, I don’t like being approached by strangers, and I loathe door to door solicitors so I understand her frustration. The Mormon Times had a recent article similar to this and a common response from people outside our faith about our missionary efforts was RESPECT. Respect when I say no, respect my personal space, respect my time.

    So the question remains how can we be BOLD and Respectful? I think the answer remains in 1. Member Missionary Work and how to 2. Find new places/ways to preach the gospel where people are expecting a dialogue.

    1. Member missionary work can be done effectively on-line, at the soccer field and by visiting teaching those hard to reach inactive members on our lists. The more we do, the less these missionaries are on the street or knocking on doors.

    2. I often go to swap meets with my family. I have noticed that the Jehovah Witness Church has purchased a booth ($10 booth fee) there every Saturday to aid in their missionary work. People at swap meets don’t mind spending extra minutes of their Saturdays chatting with people and taking flyers because they’re not on their way to work or other appointments. We have suggested this to our Spanish Speaking missionaries as an option. We hope to see them there soon.

    So yes, I think timing and location are important in showing respect. Can we think of other places where people are expecting a dialogue and direct our missionaries there? Too many people have been successfully brought to the gospel through tracting and street contacts to write them off but how can we as members make the missionaries more effective by providing contacts and supportive teaching opportunities?

    Comment #30 by JanelleFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:19 am

31. I am raising 5 children (one with special needs). My oldest is about to graduate from HS and will go on a mission next year. He is heading off to college in a few months. So, lets see if I’ve got this right. In the short 18 years that I have him I am supposed to teach him how to nurse, sit up, crawl, eat solids, walk, run, ride a bike, dress himself, tie his shoes, be nice to others, keep trying, math, reading, writing, science, social studies, history, be responsible, clean his room, not to touch his siblings, the gospel before he’s eight, why he should be baptized, all the articles of faith, how to read scriptures, how to love reading, how to play the piano, chew with his mouth closed, be polite, how to drive, to do his homework, to keep up with his AP classes, manage his time while being busy every night with church, homework, band, eagle project, cub scouts, boy scouts, knot tying, etc. while I am also teaching him about every culture and every religion that exists but still trying to help him figure out his own testimony and what he believes in and how to teach others about what he believes. All this while he is attending early morning seminary, memorizing scripture masteries and reading all of the standard works (which he has done, reading the Book of Mormon several times) and trying to explain to non-member friends (we live outside of Utah) why he doesn’t drink, smoke, use bad language, or date until he’s sixteen or older. In addition to teaching him the importance and sacredness of his priesthood duties to go home teaching and keep his hair short because he representing Jesus Christ, the only perfect person ever to walk this earth, every day. Remember he needs to learn how to serve, raise money for his mission and college, do his duty to God, help his friends with their eagle projects, go to the temple, learn how to work, be positive, be a good example to everyone around you (oh, just ignore those kids at school who say your a religious freak), smile and let your light so shine. Oh, and for heaven’s sake, brush your teeth and pick up your dirty clothes! What?! I forgot to teach him that they don’t do mass in Latin and to not approach women in a public parking lot?!

    It’s is amazing to me that the prophet and Jesus Christ trust these boys to do this work for them given the socially and religously inept young men that you have all encountered. Yet, they do! They don’t even criticize them, they just lovingly teach them correct principles. You know why? It is because the Holy Ghost is what teaches people and lets them know truth. The missionaries, these young men who have willingly given up two years of their life to be representatives of Jesus Christ are just the mouthpieces to share that truth.

    I, as a parent of a very good young man, have a soft spot in my heart for these missionaries because mine will be out there soon and I hope he meets people that overlook his faults and see that he is trying to do his best! Kindness matters!

    Comment #31 by ShanonFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:19 am

32. We are in the process of having an investigator into our home for missionary discussions. She is a young unmarried girl and we have no sister missionaries in our area to teach, so the Elders are doing the best they can to faithfully obey by teaching her. I commend missionaries for faithful service (even when some may interpret it as obnoxiousness) in the midst of situations they have no previous experience of.

    This young woman (20 something) was initially taught by another set of elders and she moved, so she was handed off. In the Gospel Essentials class this week the Word of Wisdom was taught. The instructor and several long-time members who were in the class were very outspoken about caffeine not being included. Well this investigator had been taught by the previous elders that caffeine is a part of the Word of Wisdom. She got very upset stormed out of the room. It was a little intense for everyone.

    By the end of the day she had a personal meeting with the bishop and went home from church on cloud nine. I see it as a good thing that this “trauma” happened before her baptism. It gives her a real picture of the church, that it’s full of imperfect people doing their best. She won’t be set up with unrealistic expectations because she was shielded from any unpleasantness.

    I see your friend’s encounter with the Elders the same way. So what?! They’re 19 and out preaching the gospel instead of home playing Halo, getting drunk, and having casual sex. I’m grateful for their good influence on society regardless of their number of baptisms or social mis-steps.

    Comment #32 by jendoopFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:40 am

33. I’m guessing this experience was due to the fact that the missionaries in question were young, aka 19 or 20 years old.

    Yeah, I think they were probably just young, dumb, and didn’t (don’t) realize how they came across.

    Comment #33 by AmyFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:53 am

34. I don’t understand — why shouldn’t we EXPECT some common courtesy from our missionaries even if they are 19-20 yrs old??? I exepct courtesy from my 9, 6, and 3 year old! Do I always get it — no, but I call them on it when they behave otherwise. OK — so I give a pass on them knowing LATIN — but #29 Kimarie says is fairly clearly — “still comes across as them insulting her intelligence for sitting through church services she doesn’t even understand.” She didn’t have a problem talking to the missionaires — she would have prefered NOT to be targeted in the parking lot — just like I would prefer not to be targeted in a parking lot — but when they start questioning whether she UNDERSTANDS her beliefs — well that’s just nonsense.

    Comment #34 by Melissa McFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:06 am

35. Ardis- Again not trying to be mean…I know why you went to Catholic mass and had instruction and went so in depth with knowing about the religion “so you wouldn’t make embarrassing assumptions about French Catholic beliefs”– but don’t you think that that time for you, and for all missionaries, would be better spent increasing faith and spirituality through study of your own religion?

    I haven’t yet read the comments between Erin’s and this point, so please forgive if I’m repeating what someone else said.

    Erin, your remark is truly provincial, and it leads to all kinds of difficulties in real life. You could just as well say that someone’s time is better spent improving his command of the English language than in learning a foreign language — and where would the missionary program (or international diplomacy, or cultural exchange, or the travel industry, or any other human endeavor) be? Missionaries have to be able to communicate effectively with the people among whom they serve. Melinda’s story illustrates what happens when a missionary fails to speak the language of a person he is trying to reach.

    On a personal level, did I mention that in the three months between my call and my reporting to the MTC, I read all four standard works cover to cover (with the exception of Revelation, which I still cannot manage to get through)? You have no right to assume that because I was engaging in a cultural study that I did not also do many other things to be a prepared missionaries. Egads.

    Comment #35 by Ardis ParshallFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:12 am

36. *missionary, not missionaries. Duh.

    (Sorry, Melissa. My sister-in-law is named Melinda and I am forever calling her Melissa. Seems my tongue-twist goes both ways.)

    Kimarie’s #29 comes the closest to my own reason for finding the elder in MELISSA’s story to be out of line. His remark was an insult on her church and her personally (”Hey! you can’t understand what your priest says!”), and that has no place in missionary work. You don’t promote the good will that is necessary in that labor by putting people down.

    That he was actually so ignorant of her faith only made him look foolish; that wasn’t the offensive part.

    And I’m not comfortable being approached by strange men in public, especially when they outnumber me — I feel threatened no matter what they’re wearing or how public the spot is. I also hate it when door-to-door salesmen try to be artificially friendly, as these elders appear to have been. I much prefer someone to say “Hello, I’m John and would like you to sell your soul in exchange for this Kirby vacuum monster” than to have him say, “Hi! It’s such a beautiful day today, isn’t it? Makes you just want to get out and lie in the sunshine, doesn’t it? So, are you having a good day?” All that faux-friendliness makes me suspicious that he is trying to distract me while he picks my pocket or his partner climbs in the back window or whatever. Missionaries need to be polite and businesslike and not act like buddies. They aren’t buddies. They’re strangers.

    Comment #36 by Ardis ParshallFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:26 am

37. Perhaps this is the exact reason why Heavenly Father sends 19 year old boys, because they do things that we older gals find awkward and frankly silly. I laugh often at things my husband tells me he did 5 years ago.

    The best “golden” contacts are those who are invited to the discussions by member friends. Why? Well because we can do things like build a relationship; talk about food storage, saving money, raising our kids, and using the holy ghost, showing them the many good things the gospel brings into our lives before we push doctrine of why’s down there throat.

    Statistically speaking, street contact yields a 16:1 ratio. For every 16 people they contact only one person will make it to baptism. And that’s the BEST odds from 15 years ago.

    The cool thing about this story? Well, your friend told you about it. That silly missionary just got you talking about the gospel with someone that you seem to know pretty well.

    Good luck!

    Comment #37 by JessFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:27 am

38. When your child is serving a mission. When you pray every day for their safety. When you pray daily that they will love those they serve, that they will study hard, that they will make the best use of this time that they have to totally focus on serving the Lord. When you pray that they will have the spirit with them, and find those the Lord has prepared.

    That is when you give the missionaries the benefit of the doubt, and build them up to your friends and neighbors.

    I constantly hope that my son is serving with people who will appreciate his service and his love, and treat him with respect. Afer all, he has chosen to answer the Lord’s call and give two years of his life in full time service.

    Comment #38 by KarenFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:40 am

39. I’m not disagreeing that the questions about the friend’s understanding of her own religion seemed insulting to her.

    I guess it bothers me that this became a “missionaries are so uncouth, and have no social skills” kind of discussion.

    They are sent out to proclaim the gospel, and most of them are doing it the best way they can.

    It would probably do a lot for the missionaries if every member treated them as they want their own child (or their own self)to be treated.

    Comment #39 by KarenFebruary 19th, 2010 at 11:55 am

40. I have enjoyed this discussion! I have lived “in the mission field” for 20 years and have encountered all kinds of people…missionaries and non-missionaries. Some of them have had terrible manners, that include saying things like, “Oh, this is dinner? I don’t like this.” That always makes me want to say “Good thing you aren’t serving in a country where chicken feet are a delicacy!”

    Here’s what bothers me about the encounter: I too feel she was being insulted and that the comment sounded like he was assuming she couldn’t understand her own religion. I don’t like that. We had an elder make a comment in church once about being able to feel the spirit in other churches and I thought some of our convert members were going to lynch him. They pointed out that sometimes they don’t feel the spirit at our church, it is all about attitude. He had no idea! It was a good learning experience for him. And luckily it didn’t happen on a Sunday when a non-member was there to be insulted. I think Seminary, family home evening, YW/YM and Sunday School are the perfect places for these manners to be taught. You can’t disrespect another person’s religion and think it will help you spread the gospel!

    For the record: public parking lot in the daytime seems like a fine time to try and make a contact to me.

    Comment #40 by LisaCFebruary 19th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

41. Two men approaching a single woman while she is loading groceries into her car is NOT appropriate. First off, she is preoccupied, bent over, leaning into her car, hands full, presumably back turned to them…all things that rend her vulnerable and unable to protect herself. I feel very uncomfortable and anxious if approached by ANY man in that situation (and have been many times). Not to mention, what about women who have been abused or attacked before? Its just not right to approach someone in that situation, and I don’t care what they’ve been “called to do”. People’s feelings should matter more than getting enough contacts a day.

    And I totally disagree that its the parent’s job to teach the missionaries social manners. These missionaries are not representing their parents, their representing the church, and the church is responsible for their actions. They SHOULD be taught how to handle certain social situations and when it is not appropriate to approach someone. Ya, it would be nice if the already had some background training by their parents, but if not, they need to be prepared, not just thrown out there with a “oh well, boys will be boys!” attitude.

    I also agree that the pride, superiority, and “called by God” feelings can actually do more harm than good. If you offend the person while trying to preach the gospel, how many people have you affected? That person will go away with bad feelings towards the church and share those feelings with their family, friends, etc. Who knows how many people are then turned off by the gospel and refuse to hear any of it when approached in the future? It trickles down just like that “one baptism” does.

    In my opinion, tact, sensitivity, and respect should be the NUMBER ONE concern of any missionary. They do more by teaching through action, than by spouting off their “authority” whenever and where ever they feel like it.

    Comment #41 by OliveFebruary 19th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

42. Karen, if my child chased a woman down in the parking lot and insulted her “in the name of the Lord’s errand”, I’d hope someone was there to put them in their place. That is not doing the “best you can do”, that’s being self-righteous and rude. I seriously doubt the church wants missionaries to behave that way in order to get a contact.

    Lets not pretend all missionaries are created equal…we’ve all heard the horror stories of the ones who sneak off to fraternize with the local girls, or the ones who beat their companions senseless, or the one who frightened off every contact because they just couldn’t stick to the lesson plan, or the one who was so pious that he offended every person (member and non-member alike) he met.

    To reprimand one, is not to reprimand all. The ones who are doing their duty with humbleness and love are not the ones who chase women down and badger them and insult them. Just because they are a missionary doesn’t mean they can never be faulted. They are still people who sometimes make bad choices, and those bad choices should be addressed.

    Comment #42 by OliveFebruary 19th, 2010 at 3:06 pm

43. FYI:

    When I was a missionary in WA State we were EXPECTED (as in the exact numbers were written weekly on a blackboard for all the other missionaries to see) to go up and talk to so many people per week (usually 50).

    Usually being located in very forested areas, the really only safe place for two young women to do this was the grocery store parking lot.

    However, I HATED doing this. I thought it was rather ineffective way of finding people to teach, people would run away from us, and felt like it was a waste of our time.

    To satisfy this particular requirement, we usually ended up handing out copies of the “Proclamation on the Family”.

    Comment #43 by KerstinFebruary 19th, 2010 at 8:22 pm

44. In my opinion, tact, sensitivity, and respect should be the NUMBER ONE concern of any missionary.

    And of bloggers and commenters. It’s a concern I fail too often. I have lots of company.

    Comment #44 by Ardis ParshallFebruary 19th, 2010 at 8:52 pm

45. Ardis, we all do…

    I just made the time to go read all the comments. I’m not going to weigh in on any comment in particular- other than that questioning Ardis’ integrity or dedication is just a bad move. It’ll get you a yellow-card for sure.

    As an adult convert who went through the whole missionary experience- We could ALL do with a little more familiarity with the faith practices of others. Sometimes we treat others’ beliefs as something unholy, and this comes across in our dialogues, whether intentional or not. We profess that all religions have notes of truth- we should really know what some of those truths are. It would make all of us better member-missionaries. If you own faith is solid, finding out about your neighbor’s poses no threat to you.

    I studied world religions before I joined the church. The things I learned from studying the Torah, the Koran, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita only increased my desire to find God and ultimately to be able to recognize Christ when I found Him. All things testify of Him. God is still God no matter what name we humans give him- because we are all wrong. We do not know nor speak the name of God.

    I guess that’s my rant for tonight.

    Comment #45 by Tracy MFebruary 19th, 2010 at 9:31 pm

46. Missionaries are asked to read and understand “Preach My Gospel” before they enter the MTC. Missionaries are supposed to follow the counsel in “Preach My Gospel” while serving their missions. Mission Presidents are supposed to lead according to the principles outlined in “Preach My Gospel”. Even if that happens (if everyone is following “Preach My Gospel”), there still will be awkward and embarrassing moments, since all of us are human.

    If that had happened in this case, this lady might still have been offended eventually - since if she had continued to listen long enough, she would have been asked to consider leaving her church. If that had happened in this case, many of these comments here would have been the EXACT same - since many of them are emotional reactions to what the commenter assumed on reading one version of the event (and, in some cases, interjecting experiences from their own missions).

    Fwiw, the LDS Church does a wonderful job giving missionaries instructions on these types of situations. If you doubt that, read “Preach My Gospel” carefully and thoughtfully. We humans simply mess up to various degrees in the real messiness of life.

    My son inherited my sense of humor. Chances are pretty high that he’s going to offend someone at some point on his mission as a result. I hope that moment is not captured and castigated in print, especially when the counter-dozens of good things he does as a missionary aren’t recorded.

    Did they screw up a bit? Sure. No sins and stones and all that jazz.

    Comment #46 by RayFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:12 pm

47. Ardis- Obviously I offended you and I’m truly sorry for doing so. I’m not very good with words and sometimes what I’m thinking in my head comes out badly written out, especially when I’m tired (and I’m tired now, so bear with me). A few things:

    I never assumed you didn’t prepare spiritually to be the best possible missionary, nor was I purposely trying to disparage your efforts to learn about the Catholic faith so that you could be more effective. I’m sorry that it seemed like I was attacking you.

    I do think it is good to have respect for other people and their faiths and that it is good to be familiar with other religions so that you can build on common ground and not make a dork out of yourself.

    However, I guess what bothered me a little is that it seems (this is just my personal opinion, not a direct attack on you, and it isn’t worth more than two cents) that when you get so entrenched in trying to experience something that you don’t believe in so that you won’t offend people, then it can be a bit of a distraction/danger from building upon your own faith and spirituality.

    I guess your wording just made me think of people who go so far in trying not to offend and being “accepting” that they sort of lose their own values and beliefs along the way. It is a dangerous edge to walk along. Does that make sense?

    Not that I thought that you were thinking of becoming Catholic, but that being so concerned about knowing every detail of the religion might have caused more distraction from better endeavors, than the benefits it produced.

    I think that’s what I was trying to say, but I won’t know until tomorrow. Anyway, it was your mission and you were guided in the things you did to prepare, so I know the Lord took care of you and blessed your efforts.

    Again, sorry to have offended.

    Comment #47 by ErinFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:25 pm

48. As my husband (who is a convert) is fond of saying…the church MUST be true. Otherwise, the missionaries would have killed it long ago.

    Comment #48 by The Evil StepmotherFebruary 19th, 2010 at 10:37 pm

49. The frontal lobe (responsible for impulse control) does not fully develop until sometime in the twenties.

    I don’t think you are wrong about your friend’s experience. I don’t think it was the right approach.

    Comment #49 by KatieFebruary 20th, 2010 at 7:03 am

50. It’s not so much that these are missionaries, young men still wet with teenhood but, human. Yes, as humans we all make mistakes, gaffes, faux pas, and heaven forbid, social blunders. These missionaries are just like the rest of us, human, with all of the frailties that entails. When someone stumbles like this, you smile, gently correct, if possible, and forgive; because let’s be honest, it will be you at some point and you’d really like to be forgiven as you falter through your life lessons. None of us are finished or perfected yet, but we (hopefully) keep moving forward as we actively participate in the Atonement.

    I’m proud of these young men for offering service and trying to do what the Lord has asked them to do. My hope is that we can all go and do, maybe with a little more finesse but to follow the covenants that we have made throughout our lives.

    This quote probably sums it all up, “Surely the Lord looks after His church; otherwise ignoramus missionaries would have destroyed it long ago.” J. Golden Kimball

    Who knows, maybe they were inspired to say what they said, so that you could have conversation on the subject with your friend. She will reflect whatever attitude you assume when you discuss it with her. What an opportunity! What are you going to do with it?

    Comment #50 by All8February 20th, 2010 at 7:07 am

51. Oh boy! I NEVER comment on blogs – especially Mommy blogs – since I am not a mommy. But I am a Mormon and I am a return missionary so I have to comment…

    I agree with most posters that tracting is fair game. I’ve tracted in Vatican City for heaven sakes. If you come in head on, face-to-face, you are usually able to tell whether someone (male or female) is willing to engage – and whether or not they feel intimidated by the situation. Can’t say that I’ve tracted in a parking lot – COMMON SENSE would have told me that the gelato in the grocery bag will melt and then they will be mad – even if I am sharing God’s Truth. So Shanon, I can’t hold you responsible for teaching common sense along with ALL THOSE OTHER THINGS – a boy either has it or not – and we will forgive the ones without. But since God sends out his missionaries in pairs – you would hope at least one of them has some common sense – which is harder for a junior companion to exercise – he just gets to learn from the Senior Companions mistakes and hopes he doesn’t make the same 9 months down the line. Desperation and Boredom are powerful motivators that make Missionaries make some very interesting choices – both good and bad – and there are no free passes just because they are 19+ - the BAR has been raised – expectations are higher. The Lord will protect his servants – good thing pepper spray eventually wears off.

    The post never says that F was offended. You have all just assumed she was. They just came off as “holier than thou”, ignorant Utah boys – name tag or not - no matter what the motivation behind the “do you understand what they are saying to you” either it being Latin Mass or Catholic beliefs in general. And lets call them what they are – boys. They are not men – though Mom Shanon would beg to differ since she did all that hard work to get her’s where he is today. Unfortunately, we are now treating those that have been offended (both inside and outside of the Church) with “THE CHURCH IS PERFECT BUT THE MEMBERS AREN’T”,“JUST GET OVER IT”, “GIVE THEM A BREAK, THEY ARE ONLY 19”. Instead of trying to rectify the offense with correct doctrine, love and heaven forbid an apology – but we don’t do that.

    When I was in the MTC one of my trainers was fired because he taught that situations in Italy were not going to be at all similar to those here in the States, so you may have to adapt the way you teach, proselytize, interact with the people you come in contact with. He was FIRED for this. 20 years later “Preach My Gospel” has caught on that Missionary work is not cookie cutter – and that all Missionaries are not the same and that all Missionary experiences are not the same. So progressive tendencies are about 20 years behind the curve in the Church. Surprise Surprise. So don’t expect the MTC to spend much time on culture, other religions, tolerance, sensitivity, etiquette or COMMON SENSE. They are only 19+ boys for heaven sakes – you can’t expect them to retain gospel principles, the commitment pattern (do they still do that?), break them of all their bad habits of sleeping in, staying up late, playing Halo, drinking, having casual sex AND THEN BE EXPECTED TO TEACH all those other touchy-feely (and therefore unnecessary) principles I listed above. We have to choose our battles wisely with 19 year old boys, right?

    And none of you can say that it doesn’t bother you in the least each time someone asks you how many sister wives you have? You may laugh it off and see it as your “in” to a gospel conversation – but really ladies – deep down - you know it bothers you!!! And it probably does close the door to having a meaningful discussion with that person because you already think that they have formed a negative opinion of our Church. You correct them and move on – but usually that is about it.

    Comment #51 by mrockFebruary 20th, 2010 at 8:02 am

52. I’m guessing that the Elder who asked that was either 1)very new or 2)showing off. Cold contacts in a parking lot are totally expected, but you’re supposed to make it as not-weird as possible and this Elder definitely failed in that. And he was very, very presumptuous - which is rude. We’ve all got our bad moments. It’s just sad when those bad moments reflect on an entire religion.

    Comment #52 by Nancy SabinaFebruary 20th, 2010 at 4:24 pm

53. It is amazing to me, with all of the horrible things going on in the world today, how critical we are of 2 young men that are out serving the Lord and trying to do their best at preaching the gospel. Maybe they did not handle the situtation the best way, but it sounds to me like she didn’t either. She could have said to them: you scared me (maybe that would have made them think about their approach), I’m happy with my religion, yes I do understand what I have been taught, I need to get going and I’m not really interested. Thank you or have a good day, bye.” I have to admit that I don’t like it when sales people or missionaries from other churches approach me. I had a brand new baby that the JW told me needed to be baptized because of her sins. I was offended by that and told them I was. They didn’t change my beliefs and I didn’t change theirs, but I also did not say this conversation is over you need to leave. We said we appreciate what you are doing, but we are happy with our religion. They continued to visit from time to time and we became good friends. I’ll never know if we planted a seed for them, but I do know that we were kind to them even though we had had disagreements at times.

    mrock, I have spent almost 18 years learning how to parent children. I have made many mistakes and have tried to learn from them. Being a parent can be emotionally, spiritually, and physically overwhelming and exhausting. Our church expects a lot from these kids but raising the bar was the best thing they could have done. My kids are learning alot more about their testimonies, their priorities, and goals in life than I was expected to learn in YW. They have a lot more challenges than I had also. I have tried to teach them the gospel, along with manners, social skills, commen sense, and how to respect others. I realize that I fall short most of the time, but luckily they have had good teachers and leaders that have helped me. I sometimes even think that they are good and kind kids in spite of their mom. I never meant to imply that I was a perfect mother, but I have tried my best.

    I do expect alot from my children. My son has an incredible amount of knowledge of the scriptures and the gospel. He does get up early and go to bed early (has all his life, which was annoying when he was 6 and got up at 5 am ready to play). My sons hasn’t had to break any of the bad habits you mentioned like drinking, smoking, playing Halo, or having casual sex because he has always tried to hold himself to a higher standard. He is far from perfect and does have his struggles, but I do feel like he is trying to do his best. I hope that he will be able to go on a mission, have good study habits, be able to talk to strangers (even though he is introverted and not much of a talker) and rely on the Holy Ghost for help. I also hope he is forgiven of his short comings and is treated kindly by the members.

    I have been asked about sister wives a few times and it really does not bother me. I have even joked that it would be great to have a sister wife. It’s more fun to do chores when you have someone to talk to. I explained that we don’t practice polygamy anymore. I don’t really see that as a negative attitude towards our religion. It’s something they have heard about our us. I had never thought about what language Catholic mass was done in. I realize I don’t know a lot about other religions and assume they don’t know a lot about mine. Why be offended by that?

    Anyway, I seemed to have offended you mrock, and I apologize. It was not my intention to offend, although I have to admit that the impression I got was that the author of the post was offended by what the missionaries had done to her friend, that she was not looking for us to discuss but to be offended with her, and that only the missionaries were responsible for how it ended up. I admit, it annoyed me. Moreso because it is an anxiety that I will have to face soon. I probably did not handle it the best way.

    Comment #53 by ShanonFebruary 20th, 2010 at 5:43 pm

54. However, I guess what bothered me a little is that it seems (this is just my personal opinion, not a direct attack on you, and it isn’t worth more than two cents) that when you get so entrenched in trying to experience something that you don’t believe in so that you won’t offend people, then it can be a bit of a distraction/danger from building upon your own faith and spirituality.

    I subscribe to Boyd K. Packer’s statement that there is a great difference between studying something (e.g., the gospel, to let it shape and guide my life and form my character) and studying about something (e.g., Catholicism, or knitting, or Scandinavian literature, to understand how it works, but not to make it a fundamental part of my being).

    Life is richer when you study about as many things as you can wrap your head around. I was a better missionary for better understanding the people I was trying to serve.

    Comment #54 by Ardis E. ParshallFebruary 20th, 2010 at 5:56 pm

55. Shanon, I agree with you 100%. I just sent my son on a mission. I have tried to teach him all those things and many more. I probably skipped the whole latin mass thing. Mea culpa! Anyway, we can only teach so much. I have to assume that maybe these Elders were being led by the spirit. Maybe the weren’t. But they are doing what they feel the Lord wants them to do. Face it, social graces are becoming a lost art. Used to be that society brought some social pressure to behave as Ladies and Gentlemen, but no more. So they made a mistake, hopefully next time they will make a better presentation.

    Comment #55 by pollyFebruary 20th, 2010 at 6:23 pm

56. Interesting thread. I mostly just want to roll my eyes at the idea of being scared of two kids in suits approaching you in a grocery store parking lot.

    Comment #56 by Susan MFebruary 20th, 2010 at 9:48 pm

57. So many people have said what I think already, but I will say this, Melissa, your friend may be well versed in the practices of other religions, but was she at 19? And if we compare a 19 year old boys maturity to that of a girl, really the girl would be closer to say um, 16 or 17. So did F understand the practices of other religions like ours at THAT age?

    And I agree, that understanding other peoples points of view is important, and respecting other people’s beliefs is also important, but somehow those people need to come to know The Truth just as much as someone who doesn’t have any beliefs for us to respect. We aren’t suppose to teach the gospel only to heathens who don’t know God. We are suppose to bring ALL of God’s children to the truth.

    I think it’s terribly sad that two strangers can’t have a spontaneous conversation anymore. The missionary was probably a bit out of line, esp. if say her back was turned and he just pounced, but maybe they made slight eye contact a moment before? Or she heard them walking up? Both likely scenarios.

    I love Elder Ashton’s quote about how charity is expecting the best of each other, to realize that everyone is just doing the best with what they have. Some here are so quick to judge the missionary as out of line, but not everyone has immaculate social skills and we all know this and deal with it on a daily basis with others around us. I read the story and I immediately felt bad for the young boy trying his hardest to do what he’s been asked the best way he knows how. He doesn’t need a reprimand, he needs someone to love him and guide him.

    Comment #57 by CarrieFebruary 20th, 2010 at 10:21 pm

58. And mrock, deep down I’m never offended by someone asking me about sister wives. Not even in the deepest part of me.

    Comment #58 by CarrieFebruary 20th, 2010 at 10:24 pm

59. I would be unnerved by two guys I don’t know, even in suits, walking up to me and talking to me in a parking lot while I was loading my groceries. Even if they were wearing missionary tags, and I am LDS. Maybe it’s a city girl thing. So, I’m with Olive on that one.

    Comment #59 by JohnnaFebruary 21st, 2010 at 6:02 pm

60. Maybe the missionaries could try selling tamales in the parking lot.

    Comment #60 by EFebruary 21st, 2010 at 7:39 pm

61. It’s undoubtedly true that the MTC can’t possibly teach the details of many religions’ beliefs. However, it would really help if we didn’t actively misinform them (and ourselves, really) with lessons like Chapter 16 of the Gospel Principles manual. See here: http://ldstalk.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/my-false-pagan-so-called-christian-church-of-men/ and here: http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2010/02/those-called-christians-and-their-false.html

    It’s really not surprising that young elders would feel superior and be obnoxious in their boldness when this is what they’ve been taught (and are preparing to teach in Gospel Essentials).

    Comment #61 by KristineFebruary 21st, 2010 at 9:23 pm

62. I find nothing offensive or misinformative in Chapter 16 of the Gospel principles manual, which I chose to read first, before reading your links. If you choose to get your information about the LDS church from people who ARE NOT of your religion, then thats your problem. The links you gave were so biased in their views, as I probably am in mine. If someone has a question about what is taught in Ch 16, I would recommend a more knowledgeable source than two non-members and the apparently easily swayed Kristine.

    Comment #62 by TylerFebruary 22nd, 2010 at 9:56 am

63. I’ve enjoyed reading this thread. I can tell that the writers and commenters on this website are bright, intelligent, witty, faithful people, even when there are disagreements.

    I find it kind of odd that everyone’s comments focus so much on the idea that this missionary was referring to Latin being used during Catholic mass when he asked the woman if she understood what she was taught at church. Although the woman made that assumption, I think we as members of the church know that it’s more likely he was referring to her not understanding the doctrine of her religion.

    My knee jerk reaction was to cringe at the thought of him asking her those questions in that context, but after thinking about it all night in a state of insomnia, I could kind of see where his brain was attempting(unsuccessfully) to go with it.

    When the church was restored, so were some of the plain and precious truths which were lost (e.g. We are literal spirit children of God; basic principles of faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost; etc.), and I think this missionary was trying to start a discussion on this train of thought. Unfortunately he didn’t follow the cues that Melissa’s friend was obviously not in a “discussing” mood.

    Could he have rephrased the question to make it less offensive? Probably. Could he have had this discussion in a more effective place than a public parking lot with a stranger, a woman no less, who is alone, busy, and in a hurry to get home from the grocery store? Definitely.

    I would try to look at this missionary and his efforts the way I think the Savior would look at him and his efforts.

    And if it’s done in the right way, Melissa has an awesome opportunity to share some of the plain and simple truths with her friend if she chooses to clarify the most probable intent of that Elder’s question with her friend. Hard, I know, but possibly worth it.

    Comment #63 by AllisonFebruary 22nd, 2010 at 11:50 am

64. Some random thoughts: there are many places where ANY young men approaching your while your’re putting groceries in the car is scary, when you send “kids” out into the world - you get what you get, seems a lot of you were “offended” by the possibility that Melissa’s friend was “offended” when that isn’t what she said, a bit touchy?, the assumption that wholesome Mormon mission guys wouldn’t bother people isn’t a good one, everyone isn’t familiar with the mission concept and lastly, if anyone asked me if I understood my church’s teachings, I’d make them sit through an explanation of my beliefs before I’d listen to theirs. Just say’n.

    Comment #64 by MOGFebruary 22nd, 2010 at 12:15 pm

65. Tyler, I’ve read Chapter 16. I’ve taught it. And it is both mistaken as to the historical record, and offensive in its modern implications. Both posts I linked to were written by people with extensive experience in Mormonism (one is married to a member, one is a member and returned missionary) and advanced degrees in theology. I don’t agree with every particular in their posts, but I think they raise important concerns about the way we talk about the theology of other churches.

    Comment #65 by KristineFebruary 22nd, 2010 at 6:01 pm

66. I would recommend a more knowledgeable source than two non-members and the apparently easily swayed Kristine.

    Yeah, see, um, I actually can’t think of a more knowledgeable source than Kristine. She’s, like, one of the smartest women I know. And I know a lot of wicked smart women.

    Comment #66 by Heather O.February 23rd, 2010 at 6:56 am

67. I live in Utah, married to a convert {only one in his family}. However with his unique job {at BYU of all places} we have more interactions with non-members then members. i know who would have thunk. His family live out of the country and recognize “mormon missionaries” and have at time, had them in for “a cup-pa” which the missionaries politely have accepted a drink of water instead. At BYU we are consistently having issues with pre-mission kids trying to baptize these young foreigners. Then become offended that they aren’t open to baptism and drop them like a bad hat. On the other hand my dad’s been a branch pres. at the MTC for the last 3 1/2 years and just called as a mission pres. out of the country. So missionaries are a topic at our house. . . a .l.o.t.! it always seems interesting balancing {and at times a touchy subject} missionaries and the fine balance of examples & respect. One thing I have noticed is how much missionaries mature over those years. And I’m sure this example is part of those refiner fires that help them get there. that being said. . .

    my first thought was, “why didn’t they offer to help her put the groceries in her car, for her!”

    Comment #67 by McKenzieFebruary 24th, 2010 at 4:07 pm

68. Oh, awkward nineteen-year-old boys… It’s a wonder and a testament that anyone ever converts.

    Comment #68 by Mrs. PottsMarch 14th, 2010 at 9:10 pm

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