By Hollywood
As apartment manager, I get to deal with the petty issues that come up with our tenants. Once a tenant wrote me a long note after the laundry machine ate her seventy five cents. She demanded not only to be reimbursed the seventy five cents, but also to be reimbursed for the pain and suffering that she had experienced due to the inconvenience of a faulty machine. I explained to her with as straight a face as possible that I was sorry for her suffering, but there was no way we could calculate the dollar amount of the suffering she had experienced and to please accept seventy five cents and our apologies instead.
Recently, however, the notes on my door have been more personal in nature. Up until two years ago there were no children living in our apartment building. The previous landlady didn’t want children living here and made frequent comments about how it would disturb the single professionals living in the building to have children around. We didn’t tell her we were planning on having children when we moved in. She was surprised when she noticed I was expecting and commented about how she would rather have tenants with children living on the bottom floor so the sound of their feet didn’t disturb the downstairs dwellers. Another couple moved in a few months later. When the wife had a baby 6 months later, the landlady told me she never would have moved them in if she knew they were going to have a baby. We tried to get our friends to move in to our complex when units emptied out but the landlady told them that because of their children, they were not fit for the units since the noise of their family would disturb their neighbors. At this point Adam and I were up in arms and wrote a letter to the management company letting them know the landlady was engaging in very specific family discrimination in housing and that we had contacted the Department of Housing and Urban Development to see about official action against her. A week later, the landlady was out of a job.
The management company then asked me to manage our apartment complex. I quickly accepted. Housing costs in L.A. are out of control and we could really use the break on rent. When families applied to live in our complex, I gave them the thumbs up. I’ve been manager for over a year now and there are currently nine families living in our 24 unit complex. Kids use the pool, we moms get together for play dates, and I have felt that our little apartment community has gotten a lot friendlier. But a few weeks ago the notes started. The first one was polite enough. The anonymous complaint addressed the “increasing volume generated by my new neighbors” and asked that “although families with young children should not be discriminated against, I ask that you pause and sympathize with the rest of us when considering future tenants.” It was signed, “A concerned tenant.”
The second letter was a bit more emotional and said, “there’s always some kid screaming and playing in the pool (and isn’t it dangerous for little kids/babies to be in the pool?).” The anonymous vigilante then wrote, “if we felt like having screaming kids around us for hours until 6 pm. we’d go visit a park.” This letter was signed, “A very concerned tenant.”
Because it is blatantly illegal to discriminate against families when considering rental applications and children are allowed to play in the pool during regular pool hours, we did nothing to respond to these anonymous complaints. Summer here has been extraordinarily hot and most days a couple of families used the pool to cool off and relax. As they should.
Then a third note came. “This apartment complex was quiet and peaceful until you guys started having the screaming kids running around the complex in the courtyard and playing in the pool. We’d like to come home to a nice environment, not to “your backyard” with so many screaming kids around…this is not your and your friends’ private backyard. Screaming kids should not be running around in the common area to disturb us. Please leave the screaming kids in your own apartments. We DO NOT want to hear your conversations and babytalks with your kids…We choose to live [here] for a reason and you’re ruining it for us with the screaming kids, loud noises, and splashing in the pool.”
The complainer didn’t bother thinking up a cute name to sign this one.
I immediately called the management company I work for and raved for about 15 minutes about how I would not let families be discriminated against in any way and how it is illegal to take action against families simply because their children make kid noises in normal circumstances. I reminded them about the previous manager and let them know that I would happily quit as apartment manager if they were to take any action against the families in our complex because of these complaints. I was frickin’ livid. My boss listened patiently to my ravings, then told me what a great job I was doing and not to worry about this letter. We both are just hoping that this anonymous kid-hater just moves out.
Since this last letter, I’ve taken my girls swimming every stinking day at 5:00. I don’t care whether they want to go or not, I don’t care if the pool is 40 degrees, I don’t care if I have other errands I needed to run, we get in that pool and play. Although I have the list narrowed down to a few names, I’m not quite sure who the complainer is. But luckily for them, their notes have really given me the itch to have my kids play outside and enjoy our wonderful California pool daily. My girls couldn’t be happier.
I’ve talked to a lot of friends in town who have stories of being discriminated against when they were looking to rent an apartment with children. Often a landlord will ask if an applicant has children and if they say they do, the apartment magically becomes unavailable. Families are often told that two kids are too many for a two bedroom apartment. Sometimes landlords even try to raise rent when children are born. You NEVER have to tell a landlord that you have kids, they have no right to tell you how big of a space your family should live in and penalizing you for having kids is just plain wrong. For some reason, people out there continue to think they can do this kind of thing.
Everyone should know that if you can prove that you’ve been discriminated against because of your family status, you can get the company busted and win $10,000 from the Department of Housing and Urban Development. I’m not sure how much these laws differ from state to state, but here are a few links to legal sites that describe what exactly entails discrimination against families. For any of you renters out there, take a look and you may be surprised to find that you’ve been discriminated against. Don’t let anyone get away with it. Take unfearing action - the law is on your side. Anyone up for a swim?
Legal rights: http://discriminationiswrong.com/families.html#families
Department of Housing and Urban Development Complaints: http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/yourrights.cfm
(Added on Tuesday for the sake of the comment section: I do alert the families when there is complaint about the noise and they are all warned when they move in that the complex used to be kid-free and that some tenants aren’t used to having kids around. But I also tell them that they are allowed to use the pool during pool hours as long as they keep their voices at a respectful level and that their children are welcome to play outside. After this last anonymous note I received, I posted a notice to the apartment community saying that we should all try and be patient and considerate of each other as we try to live together in this small space and posted a copy of the house rules which have no anti-family clauses. My management company didn’t want me to get into the specific “laws” of family rights because they feared our tenants would get sue-happy.)




I’d be more impressed with your case if you showed one iota of compassion for the folks who need some child-free time. They might be preschool teachers or pediatric nurses who need some child-free time.
I agree that anonymous notes are a snarky way to deal with the situation. If I lived there, I would come and talk to you, and ask if there might be some compromise. Like at least having Friday as a no-kids-in-the-pool after 5 day that I could count on.
When I schedule appointments with the doctor/dentist etc., I purposely take the mid-morning/mid-afternoon appointments. Why? Simply because I can; my current schedule is flexible enough to allow it, but I remember when I was a struggling employed parent and an early morning or noontime appointment was essential.
If we all tried harder to accomodate each other, the world would be a much nicer place. As moms, one of the mantras we teach our young people is, “Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you SHOULD do something.”
Comment #1 by NaismithSeptember 18th, 2007 at 12:56 amThere is just no way I’m going to tell the families that live here that they can’t let their kids play in the pool. If there were big parties in the pool, unauthorized guests or families breaking any of the house rules, I’d be the first person to step in. But to make any parent feel like they don’t have a right to enjoy the common area simply because their children play more exuberantly then the some of our other, childless tenants is something I just can’t do. I understand it would be pleasant to have a totally silent apartment complex, and may sound like a good “compromise” to restrict kids’ access to the pool but it’s also illegal to make “child-free” hours at the pool or in the common area or to tell children that they are limited in the times they are allowed to be outside. I’ve told all the families living here that there have been complaints and they all know to be respectful, but other than that, they have the right to enjoy the shared space just like anyone else. The old manager once told my neighbor that “the sound of your child’s feet is too loud” and she was then terrified to ever let her eight year old outside for the rest of the summer for fear that they’d be evicted if he walked too loud. People really don’t know what their kids’ right are - and they DO have the right to go outside whenever they want. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Comment #2 by sarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 1:25 amWe live in a NYC apartment building and there are kids all around us - and we’re content with that.
It’s amazing how kid-friendly and dog-friendly New Yorkers are. At least from what I see around here. People are choosing to raise families here - and the constrained environment and higher expenses don’t seem to prevent that from happening for those who choose to do so.
Comment #3 by danithewSeptember 18th, 2007 at 1:26 amYay for you, Sarah!!
I seem to remember places that were “Adult Communities” back when I was renting. If people resent the sound of kids playing within normal bounds (ie- not after a certain hour) they should probably look for an “adult-only” living arrangement.
Comment #4 by Tracy MSeptember 18th, 2007 at 1:26 amSarah - you’re ‘concerned tenant’ bugs the crap outta me…They live in an apt complex - if they want absolute peace and quiet, they should not be living in a community style living arrangement. Since you and the other families are not breaking any rules, then they have no right to be complaining. They should be the ones to move - not you.
Comment #5 by amelia bedeliaSeptember 18th, 2007 at 3:16 amI don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask all of the parents to remember that their children should not be screaming in public spaces. Then you can respond to the complainer that you have taken reasonable steps to meet his/her needs. And then I’d let it go.
Comment #6 by Julie M. SmithSeptember 18th, 2007 at 3:24 amSarah-
I’m torn. First I totally agree with you that if this is a family complex, children MUST be able to be children. Laughing, playing in the pool, and learning that there really is a place you can use your “outside voice” are things worth fighting for absolutely.
OTOH- I do feel for the tenants who thought they had moved into a more or less adult only community. Is there a place they can go if that’s how they want to live? Or is it just illegal to have an adults only apt area?
We have a neighbor who thinks our suburban HOA should tell the kids to be quiet after 7 pm. Hey- no sympathy from me, because he knew when he moved in that this place is packed with kids!
But I think it’s different if the tenants THOUGHT they were leasing a kid-free environment.
Comment #7 by JustRandiSeptember 18th, 2007 at 3:35 amI certainly want all my tenants to be happy (trust me, I don’t like notes on my door like this one bit) but there really is nothing I can do in this situation to alleviate this anonymous tenants concerns. The problem here lies in judging what is “reasonable” noise from kids. As a mother of two, if I hear kids laughing and splashing in the pool at 4 pm, I consider that reasonable. For other tenants who don’t have kids and have NEVER heard kids playing outside before, any level of noise could be deemed unacceptable. It’s an unfortunate situation that we all can’t just “get along.” But I really do feel strongly about family discrimination. To me, it’s just like a tenant was complaining about having to live side by side with African Americans and didn’t want to have to see them at the pool when they came home. You can’t just X out a group and restrict their rights like that. I really wish this anonymous note leaver would have approached me personally so I could tell then exactly what we can and can’t since they don’t seem to understand the confines a management company works within when dealing with families. But since they chose to remain anonymous, I expect the notes to continue.
Comment #8 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 3:57 amTell the complainers they’re lucky they’re not living in a complex with a bunch of college students who are up partying all night (and raining cigarette butts, empty bottles, and shaved hair down on your front walkway), drug addicts who are fighting with their spouses at 3am outside your window, and some guy who likes to blare his car stereo at 6am.
Apartment living is apartment living. Deal with it.
Comment #9 by Susan MSeptember 18th, 2007 at 4:31 amThe apartment we lived in before we bought our house had a mixture of young single corporate types, families with 2 or more kids, and senior citizens. In the apartment rules section of all the paperwork we had to sign, it read that there were quiet hours from 8 PM to 8 AM, there was an minimum age to be able to use the sauna and hot tub (I think it was 6 years old), and that there were two hours of the day that were adults only (18 or older) for the swimming pool (they were the first and last hours that the pool was open). There was also a restriction on how many bodies could be permanently living in the apartment (this was defined as living there for a month or more)…not a limit on how many children, but people in general (it was 2 bodies per bedroom, so if you had a 1 bedroom apartment, you could have 2 people permanently living there). These rules were presented before you signed your lease…if you didn’t like the rules, you didn’t have to rent there. Most people recognized that the managers were trying to present a happy balance for all the tenants. One of the managers was a really nice girl that I got to visit teach and she said that there were very few complaints with the system.
Comment #10 by fluffychickySeptember 18th, 2007 at 4:54 amI’m glad you brought that up, Fluffy. I know I’m being contentious on these points, but family discrimination is so much more subtle than racial discrimination and many many people don’t think it’s wrong. Even though the contract you signed may sound reasonable and everyone who lived there agreed to the terms, just because discrimination is written into the contract doesn’t mean tenants are bound by it. Here’s a blurb from an anti-discrimination law firm on this very subject:
What if I signed a lease and agreed to abide by the apartment rules which prohibit children from playing outside?
You will be relieved to know that the law will not require you to abide by illegal apartment rules simply because you signed a lease agreeing to do so. If an apartment rule violates the law, then tenants are NEVER required to abide by the rules even if they signed a lease agreeing to do so. An apartment rule is always illegal if it violates anti-discrimination laws. If the landlord tries to evict you for refusing to follow an illegal apartment rule, then he has committed housing discrimination.
Let’s make it more obvious with a clearer example. Assume that a tenant signs a lease and agrees to abide by an apartment rule that says, “No tenant in the complex may bring Mexican friends to the complex.” This rule would clearly be illegal and the law would never permit a landlord to enforce such a rule. The landlord cannot avoid the law by saying, “My tenant signed the lease and agreed to abide by this rule.” The tenant has no obligation to abide by this rule.
It’s fine to have rules against unreasonable noise such as drum playing. It’s fine to have a pool closing time (ours is at 9 pm.). It’s fine to limit the amount of unrelated singles living in an apartment. But when you make specific rules just for families, that’s where you get into dangerous waters.
Comment #11 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:09 amWell, I think that you could leave the annonymous note leaver a note on your door. Something to the effect of we’ve heard your complaints, and this is what I have or can do about it, and then leave it alone. I could see the tenants side if it was an adult only community, but it is not….so I’m totally on your side.
Comment #12 by BSeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:14 amGood for you for sticking up for families.
Comment #13 by ColleenSeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:28 amThe apartment rules were not just for families, they were for everyone that lived in the apartment and their guests…as I said, we had a really good mix of all “life stages.”
This is obviously a sensitive topic, I just thought I would share an example of where people recognized that you need to try and be kind and respectful to everyone, with or without families.
Oh, and I wasn’t saying that writing discrimination into a contract makes it acceptable.
Comment #14 by fluffychickySeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:34 amMaybe when everybody pays their rent you could comment that there have been concerns aired and you wanted to let them know the facts as outlined by the Housing Authority and by the State of California. Then hand them a copy of each. Or maybe you could have copies available outside your front door, then when the “concerned tenants” come to leave a note they can pick one up for themselves. Or perhaps, you could put a copy in each mail box. After they’ve been educated, everyone can make the decision that will suit them the best.
Comment #15 by All8September 18th, 2007 at 5:41 amI hear you, Fluffychicky. I don’t claim to know the specifics of your contract and am glad that your community had managed to live happily together. But at least here in CA, “adult only” swim time is illegal. I had no idea until I looked it up. A lot of apartment complexes have it though and nobody minds. All the kids are always out of our pool by 6 p.m. anyway because the day cools off and dinner time hits. We have a sort of de-facto adult only time at the pool.
Yes, it’s a sensitive topic…I am well prepared for a vigorous debate here in the comment section. Just nobody put nasty notes on my door at night and I’ll be fine with any points you make here
Comment #16 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:43 amI spent much of my childhood in a town with an average age of 67.8, and let me tell you about discrimination. This was NOT a retirement community, however because of the high numbers of one particular group even the school hours were scheduled as to not interfere with “adult/55+” shopping. This is just one example of things that were swayed due to heavy pressure from one group.
Some rules are indeed discriminatory and should not be tolerated. If someone lives in a purposely restrictive environment (country club, gated comm., 55+, and others) then I suppose one chooses to live with restrictions. If your complex is not restrictive then everyone needs to play nice and follow the law.
However, I would not purposely cause more friction to or by making a point.
Perhaps a complex wide letter could be sent informing the tenants about the concerns and also the law. Include a reminder of the rules for the complex and also a reminder that annonomous notes and letters will no longer be worthy of attention as they could have been left by any passerby.
I would also, no matter how vocal or otherwise guilty someone may appear to be, I would not presume this or that person is the author until you get a signatue. You could be surprised at how well/decent/supportive some “authors” act when they know negative suspect is easily drawn to a third party who is, in reality, innocent.
Comment #17 by s'meeSeptember 18th, 2007 at 5:46 amWhat a great opportunity to try and empathize with others. Let us know once you start.
Comment #18 by AustinSeptember 18th, 2007 at 6:17 amGo Sarah!! Apartment living is apartment living (to quote Susan M). You have to expect a certain amount of noise and/or inconvenience. People’s stereos, people’s cooking, and people’s kids!
I think you did the right thing by posting a letter with the rules so everyone can see. It shows the anonymous coward that you hear him/her, but that the law is on your side.
Comment #19 by The WizSeptember 18th, 2007 at 6:25 amAustin,
Did you mean for that comment to sound as rude as it does? ‘Cuz it comes across as quite condescending, judgmental, and rude.
I’m just not sure if you meant for it to be or not.
Comment #20 by Inexperienced DadSeptember 18th, 2007 at 6:37 amFunny,
We live in a condo HOA area that USED to be for over 60’s until about 5 years ago. Apparently, people who are retiring didn’t want to buy a condo for 1.2 million dollars (we are in the Bay Area, CA). THey had to open it up to families so people would buy. We were the first family.
I cannot tell you how many nasty notes, “comments” and complaints we have had about our kids. Ironically, not even over things like noise. THings like “I don’t want to see their bikes on the porch (which is not visable from the street), or they don’t like the kids in the pool when tney want to be out there drinking. Or, they “worried the kids will be in the road when they drive down the street” (NEVER, never happens…it is my phobia). Gah.
I guess I just laugh and think to myself that we are annoying them more than they are annoying us. We paid to live here just like them. We are not breaking the rules and frankly, they will likely be gone before we are. I do feel sorry that they moved to an area where they thought it would be child free and that changed, but the HOA voted on it and the time to try and stop it was BEFORE they opened it up. Not after.
Anyway, I feel your pain. At least you have other kids. You can tell you tenants to come move up here!!!
Comment #21 by bekSeptember 18th, 2007 at 7:06 amAustin, GIVE ME A BREAK! Sarah is totally within her bounds to feel the way she does (AND THE LAW SUPPORTS HER!). If someone wants peace and quiet, BUY A HOUSE! When I lived in an apt. we had to listen to the gay couple above us gettin’ in on every night, so families aren’t the only “disturbance”. I think a large part of our society has a unrealistic expectations that because they’ve chosen not to have kids they shouldn’t have to deal with ours. Well wake up, you live on planet Earth. We make babies here and THEY MAKE NOISE!
Comment #22 by Methodical WormerSeptember 18th, 2007 at 7:16 amGO SARAH!!
Comment #23 by Methodical WormerSeptember 18th, 2007 at 7:17 amI was an apartment manager for a couple of years, so I know how hard dealing with tenants can be. I’m glad we never got any notes about children making noise, though. Since for a little while mine was the only kid, I would have felt terrible. Luckily they all knew we had a kid when they signed contracts with us (well, a couple had signed contracts before we bought it, but they didn’t say anything either). But I was especially sensitive to the problems it could cause because we were also the owners, and I really wanted to keep those apartments full.
You NEVER have to tell a landlord that you have kids, they have no right to tell you how big of a space your family should live in and penalizing you for having kids is just plain wrong.
At least in some states, the middle part of this is untrue. NC rental law has some stipulation about how much square footage is needed per person (I don’t remember exactly how it states this, because it’s been a couple of years). So theoretically, I could get in legal trouble for renting to a family of 10 if the apartment I’m renting them doesn’t meet the minimum square footage requirement for 10 people. Still, there’s little chance that someone with a big enough family for it to be an issue would even try to rent the apartment, because I’m pretty sure the minimum square footage requirement is pretty small.
Comment #24 by VadaSeptember 18th, 2007 at 8:31 amReally, the complaining tenant has no grounds. If h/she is that annoyed with children, there are neighborhhods and complexes that are expliitly child-free. The person should go find one of those.
Comment #25 by mamiSeptember 18th, 2007 at 9:41 amYikes. I realize this is a sensitive topic, but so are many others that this blog deals with. I don’t often comment, but I’ve always been impressed by the tone of the posts and subsequent comments (i.e., kind, understanding, sensitive, courteous, etc.). Please, help me to want to continue reading.
Comment #26 by ChristinaSeptember 18th, 2007 at 9:43 amVada-
A family in our ward here in Virginia was told they had to move when they had a baby. They were told the law stipulated that only 2 people could live in a one bedroom apartment.
Comment #27 by Heather O.September 18th, 2007 at 9:45 amWhen we lived in a townhouse/apartment the only time the “noisy kids” ever bugged me was when they would run into the little fenced off area that was our backyard and play right next to our back door. (It was fenced off by the management company, not by us–everyone had a tiny little backyard section which connected to a big grass common.) Other than that, it was totally fine for them to run and scream and make however much noise they wanted in the common grass area.
I agree with the idea that you should maybe try to send an apartment wide letter saying that this issue has been dealt with and if the commenter has any additional issues they should come talk to you in person so you can better help to kick some sense into their heads. Er, help them with their problems. Whichever
Comment #28 by KrisisSeptember 18th, 2007 at 9:52 amSarah, I think you’re taking this too personally. There’s a HUGE difference between attacks being “anti-family” and attacks on noise caused by loud kids. Before I had kids, I was a nurse, I used to work night shifts and then come home to our married student housing complex and try to get some sleep. I recognized that most normal people are awake and doing things during the day, I tried to be sensitive to that. I closed my window and used white noise to block out the sounds outside, but it was still really difficult. I never made a big deal out of it because my neighbors were conscious enough to not let their children scream or yell incessantly. I understood that kids make noise and I don’t think it’s possible or necessary for them to be silent.
At least your neighbors were polite enough to write down their concerns instead of yelling from their apartments at your or your kids or picking a fight with you in front of your children. Try to be conscious of them too. It’s normal to have adjustments when you share a small space. This is definitely not an “attack on the family” like they speak of at General Conference. Save your “save the family” speech for a better forum.
Comment #29 by midwest momSeptember 18th, 2007 at 10:15 amSarah, this is all very good information. I hope things settle down where you are. Do you have a lot of 2 bedrooms in your building?
Comment #30 by Mrs MSeptember 18th, 2007 at 10:32 amMidwest mom-
Sarah’s post is an attempt to make us all aware of the subtle discrimination against families that exists in the housing market. If not willing to rent to families is not an attack on the family, I don’t know what is. Also, I can think of no better forum for her to express her views about children’s and family rights than a mommy blog.
And, if you re-read Sarah’s post, one of the notes that was sent to her was not polite. Polite would be to come to her door and discuss it in a rational manner, not send nasty anonymous notes.
Comment #31 by Heather O.September 18th, 2007 at 11:54 amHeather, I should have you write an intro to all my future posts decoding my flair for the dramatic
I also have to state here that the “screaming” that the notes allege isn’t going on. The noise coming from the pool is talking and splashing. The person sending the complaint letters seems to have NO tolerance for any amount of mom/kid related noise as evidenced by their last note. Only once can I think of a time when the noise coming from the pool was unnecessarily loud and I immediately went down and said something to the swimmers (last summer).
And yes, I’m happy to take this personally. I’ve got a family. Do you think they’d let me talk about this in General Conference? Sign me up!
Comment #32 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 12:04 pmFind this person and see why they hate children so much. Perhaps she’s a mother who lost a child.
Other than that, I think you’re spot on.
Comment #33 by cherylSeptember 18th, 2007 at 12:12 pmI agree with Sarah and Heather–if this isn’t discriminatory, what is and what better forum as well? I mean can empathize with people who aren’t “kid” people and therefore don’t like the disturbances that come with the territory, but you can’t ask for rules to be written to fit your specific likes and dislikes . . . could you imagine if everyone did that? Um apt. 23 isn’t fond of the smell of curry, so there will be no Indian cuisine allowed. Apt. 14 dislikes southern rock, so no audible Lynyrd Skynyrd will be tolerated . . .
Sarah I think you’re handling the situation well.
Comment #34 by MiggySeptember 18th, 2007 at 12:49 pmI remember when I was little and my family was in the middle of trying to find a house in a different state my dad got a “kid free” apartment because he was working in the new state and didn’t have us with him during the week or even most weekends. Unfortunately we weren’t even supposed to visit (I don’t think my dad realized the extent of the anti-kidness till after we cam to visit the first time). We did visit every once in a while because he is or dad and we wanted to see him! But we made sure that we were VERY QUIET. And that if we wanted to go outside and play we went to a park. As a 7 yr old this REALLY confused me. I couldn’t understand how someone could dislike me that had never met me. Thank goodness my parents found a house quickly and dad moved out.
Comment #35 by AprilSeptember 18th, 2007 at 1:21 pmSARAH~ YOU GO GIRL!!!!
Comment #36 by LeiGulSeptember 18th, 2007 at 6:39 pmI kind of feel sad for people in that complex who don’t like kids — they have no option to find kid-free housing (and may I randomly remind those who say “buy a house” of how much houses cost in CA?) and they’ve decided to get annoyed over something that’s both prevalent and totally out of their control.
I did, after all, say “kind of.” And, well, I know a guy who can sell you a year’s supply of earplugs for the cost of a decent steak dinner.
Though, for the record, I’m not sure I support the idea of making it illegal to deny housing to people on the basis of, well, anything, to be honest. I’m not convinced that forcing people to be accommodating, by force of law, is the best way to build anything other than frustration: telling your tenants that the state’s law prohibits you from restricting the behavior of children in the complex isn’t going to make them be better neighbors towards you OR the kids. It might just make them send letters to their state Senators instead of to you, with potential consequences that will increase the amount of discrimination that families with children experience.
Oh, and some of us are so terrified of confrontation that we give ourselves ulcers just *contemplating* asking someone to change their behavior in person: not everyone who sends an anonymous note is necessarily doing it just to be nasty or controlling. And, well, I’m still working up the courage to tell our ward chorister it’d be nice to sing the songs a wee bit faster, and it’s been nearly two years since I decided it’d be a good idea. I feel tense just thinking about it. Now I need ice cream! Ugh.
Comment #37 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 7:19 pmI’m a different Sarah, BTW. Obviously. Heh.
Comment #38 by SarahSeptember 18th, 2007 at 7:20 pmWhen we rented our first apt. in SoCal, we were told that it was some kind of fire code that you can only have 2 people per bedroom and one in the living room. I found this rule interesting since I’m positive that a family of 10 lived in the apartment above us. (Gotta love those multi-generational families!)
In our current 2 bedroom apartment, the younger two share a room and our oldest’s room is in our walk-in closet!
People just need to understand that in a community living situation, like in an apartment complex, there’s going to be noise. The pool has noise. No wonder the apartments that directly face the pool have lower rents! The park has noise. Their rents are lower, too. We live in the back, facing an empty field. Our rent is higher, but no complaints here, I’m grateful I don’t have to listen to the neighborhood comings and goings along with all the noise from people starting their cars in the morning.
Good for you, Sarah. Thanks for standing up for families!
Comment #39 by SallyGirlSeptember 18th, 2007 at 8:27 pmI’m with Midwest mom and Austin on this. You haven’t shown one ounce of compassion for the folks who are bothered by the noise. You say that you want your tenants to be happy, but only so that YOU won’t get notes.
I am not talking about the letter of the law, I am talking about the respect with which Christians treat each other when they have a dispute.
This is the part of the original entry that disturbed me:
“Since this last letter, I’ve taken my girls swimming every stinking day at 5:00. I don’t care whether they want to go or not, I don’t care if the pool is 40 degrees, I don’t care if I have other errands I needed to run, we get in that pool and play.”
Clearly, this is not about meeting your children’s needs, it is about making a point and rubbing it in their faces.
The law may be on your side, but that doesn’t make you “right” in the larger moral sense.
To listen to your supposedly pro-family rhetoric, the rights of children to scream trump the rights of anyone else to sleep or whatever.
We lived in apartments for our first three children, and always went to my neighbors and asked them if they could hear the baby fussing at night, to see if there was some accomodation that should be made (perhaps moving to another room), and let them know that they could talk to me if there were issues. They warned me about their poker games etc., and asked if those were too loud. We expressed concerned for each other. Yes, it’s apartment living, but we can try to compromise.
Plus I find it interesting that there seems to be a moving target here. First it is noise in the pool at 5 p.m. (which is a critical time because employed people are getting home from work, kinda fried and hoping to relax). Then in a later comment it changes to 4 p.m., which wouldn’t bother me at all because I wouldn’t be there.
Also, I’m astonished that anyone who has an issue with other people’s kids is labeled as anti-child. This may make you feel more righteous in your cause, but may or may not be true. When I was driving to the gym, I had to wait for someone to pull out of a primo parking space right in front of the entrance. Then I drove on, parking out farther where I had to walk a few minutes. Why? Because even if I hadn’t seen the mom in the minivan behind me, I know one would drive up soon, and be grateful for a spot that would make their day a bit easier, and safer for their kids. So don’t accuse me of being anti-child, because I’m not. (Although after reading this, I’m wondering if I should not bother with such kindness, but “stick to my rights” and whip into that parking space.)
Comment #40 by NaismithSeptember 19th, 2007 at 2:34 amNaismith-
Sarah also mentioned that the “noise” is nothing more than appropriate playful sounds from children. There is nothing to suggest that her or the other children are being inappropriately disturbing. They are just being kids.
Apartment living is tough, and everybody has to put up with a certain level of inconvenience. However, beyond being intolerant of normal kid noises, nobody has been polite enough to come to Sarah’s door to find an appropriate compromise, or whatever. A nasty anonymous note does not inspire compassion or respect.
Comment #41 by Heather O.September 19th, 2007 at 2:59 amAlso, I would be “disgusted” with me too if there were actually “screams” coming from the pool area. But there aren’t. The person writing the notes simply detests the idea of children in the common area. Since I have told the families in the complex about the complaints and they know to be respectful, they are all a bit afraid to go outside again with their children. By me going outside, I’m giving the other families the message that it’s still okay to leave their apartments as long as they are respectful of the noise level. Although you may hate my reasons for playing outside, you certainly can’t say it’s not “Christian” of me to do so since my children and I are not causing undue noise. When my children get fussy or start screaming WE GO INSIDE. But I do feel that as manager, my continuing to play outside gives the thumbs up to other families to do the same despite the complaints against kids.
Comment #42 by sarahSeptember 19th, 2007 at 3:43 amI somewhat agree with Naismith, as the part where Sarah says she takes the kids to play in the pool just to spite the anonymous letter writer certainly does not display a Christian attitude. That said, I am not in support of discrimination, and understand the laws. I think everyone needs to be more sensitive, including Sarah. And when you make a post like this, you have to listen to what people say, and what they are trying to say, in response to it rather than just get defensive. I am about to have my first baby, and I hope I can be sensitive to the needs of others in our building, as I hope they will be to ours.
Comment #43 by rebekahSeptember 19th, 2007 at 3:56 amGood luck with that, rebekah. Congratulations on your pregnancy, and I hope your neighbors don’t call DCF when your kid won’t sleep at night. It’s been known to happen.
Clearly, the answer is to infest all apartments with bees, burn down the buildings, and then build affordable soundproof townhouses in their place. Surely this isn’t too much to ask?
I know!! Make it illegal to HAVE any children!! Let’s all join the eugenics movement! Hey, the one child thing is working out SWELL for China, let’s take it a step further. That way, we can all live in peace and quiet until we die.
Of course, if you already have kids, you will be forced to move to a tropical island far away from all the sane people who have to ‘work’ for a living. I’m up for it. Coconuts, anyone?
Comment #44 by The WizSeptember 19th, 2007 at 6:31 amactually… I live in china.
no, really. but that has nothing to do with what i was saying about us ALL (Sarah AND anonymous concerned tenant) being more sensitive to our neighbors, not vindictive by doing something we KNOW they will not like just because we know they do not like it. Back it up biblically, and I will stand corrected.
I believe the Bible says something about vengeance being God’s, not trying to prove everything ourselves. Living by example is one thing you stress so much on here, and I always appreciate the posts, but sometimes others call us on things, and we have to stand corrected. It is perfectly fine to vent frustrations, but the community we belong to should not only support us, but gently guide us when we may not have made the best choice. Please take this in the spirit in which it is written, not as a personal attack. I certainly support families rights, and as such found a family friendly community in which to raise our coming child. I definitely agree that the anonymous note leaver should be addressed, maybe he could be allowed to leave without lease breaking penalty, if he would reveal himself? something of the sort. I am just saying, being a Christian is not just about what we know but how we show it.
Comment #45 by rebekahSeptember 19th, 2007 at 6:48 amooo. Tropical Island…. HERE I COME!
Comment #46 by AprilSeptember 19th, 2007 at 6:50 amRemember me? I heard there was a debate going on over here and headed over to dispense some of my trademark cyber-slaps. Who’s first? You can pick whether you want to be slapped before or after I dispense condemning rhetoric concerning the eternal destination of your soul.
Comment #47 by Brother JonesSeptember 19th, 2007 at 7:31 amLOL!!!!
Comment #48 by The WizSeptember 19th, 2007 at 7:36 amWhat?! People are having children?! And letting them play outside instead of sticking them in front of the TV with video games where they belong?! The nerve!
The new company we rent from actually offers a family discount because in our predominantly college student area they recognize the value of (mostly) responsible adults. People with children are more likely to abide by quiet time rules than college kids.
I let our old neighbors throw their parties, and I never asked them to cut the noise until about 1 am. People still get to live their lives, and not by my rules just because we happen to share a wall. I thought that was what you accept when you do apartment living. Welcome to entitlement where people think the world revolves around them and their wants. Sorry, but expecting kids to stay indoors and not be kids simply isn’t reasonable, whether or not you like it that way.
Thank you for standing up for the kids Sarah!
P.S. Our last landlady charged us extra for every person over the two of us. We had another kid, our rent went up another $25. Makes me want to check out the rules……
Comment #49 by mo mommySeptember 19th, 2007 at 2:31 pmToo bad your “concerned tenant” doesn’t read mormon mommy wars.
Is it getting hot in here, or is it just me???
Comment #50 by mommyto3September 19th, 2007 at 2:35 pmWarning - Threadjack:
I read in the paper this morning that as of October 2, Southwest Airlines will no longer allow families to preboard.
Comment #51 by berzerkcarrottopSeptember 20th, 2007 at 10:08 amSarah - I have to leave a comment b/c I am an apartment manager in LA, too, and have been for about a year. I totally know the annoyance (and sometimes rage I guess) that comes with the stupid notes - usually anonymous - that people leave on your door, in your mailbox, on your car, etc. Ugh! Sometimes the hardest thing to do is just let something go. I think you are totally correct and I would be doing the same thing as you are. If you really feel the noise level is appropriate, and your boss is behind you, just try to let it go (vent to your hubby - that’s what I do, poor guy). And brace yourself for the next complaint down the line, because there always is one. The thing is if it weren’t kids it would be something else, playing music too loud, vacuuming, etc. There’s always something. And as others have said, it’s an apartment complex. You are (unfortunately) always running the risk that your neighbor won’t also be your buddy. Good for you for sticking up for the family!! I was SO thrilled when I got another couple with kids in our building b/c my boy was the only one. Good luck. And stay positive. Don’t let the job get you down… it’s easy to let it get to you.
Comment #52 by BethSeptember 21st, 2007 at 5:56 pmJust leave a sign on your door that all anonymous notes will be shredded unread, and that anyone who has a concern needs to be up front enough to sign their name to it.
Comment #53 by RNSeptember 21st, 2007 at 7:47 pmThen do it. Shred those anonymous notes without reading them.
And am I the only one wondering if fired landlady might be the one leaving the notes……