By Heather O.
The world is rife with iniquity. Our children are bombarded with evil unlike anything ever seen in any other generation. We, as mothers, need to be steadfast and immovable as we train up our children in righteousness and provide in our homes a haven of peace and love. The world is in need now, more than ever, of righteous mothers who are prepared to do the work of raising a righteous generation. Mothers, be strong and faithful. Pray with your children in your home, pray for them in your heart and in your mind as you perform your nurturing duties. Yours is a powerful responsibility, a challenge and a job that sometimes, you may think you can not possibly manage.
I tell you sisters, that you can manage. You can.
You can meet the challenges required of you in these latter days. You can be the mothers the Lord needs in these trying times. Turn to the Lord with all your hearts and minds, and trust that with His help, you can be the mother that you need to be.
The children who have come into your home were not placed there by accident. They have been enstrusted to you from the Lord to nurture and to love, and with His help, you can train them and teach them the paths of righteousness. You have more influence over their spirits than any other source. Do not squander that influence, and do not think you are inadequate. Sisters, you can do this. The Lord has called you to this work, and by doing so, you are therefore qualified.
Have faith, mothers. Do not despair. Be steadfast and immovable in these trying times, and know that the Lord is with you, and sees and accepts your sacrifice. And for standing against the forces of evil in your homes, you and your family will enjoy all the blessings the Lord has in store.
We ever pray for you, dear mothers, and we love you. Be wise, have faith, stay strong. Amen.
Ok, I’m walking away from the computer now.
As I mentioned on the T&S thread, this quote from Chieko Okazaki (General Conference 1993) has given me much comfort through the years — not as a mom (I’m not one, yet) but as a sister, daughter, wife families that don’t seem to match the “ideal.” It’s a passage that consistently encourages me to be both stronger and kinder.
“As Elder M. Russell Ballard has already reminded us, there is great diversity in LDS homes. But all of these homes can be righteous homes where individuals love each other, love the Lord, and strengthen each other. Let me give you an example. Here are two quilts. Both are handmade, beautiful, and delightful to snuggle down in or wrap around a grandchild. Now look at this quilt. It’s a Hawaiian quilt with a strong, predictable pattern. We can look at half of the quilt and predict what the other half looks like. Sometimes our lives seem patterned, predictable in happy ways, in order. Now look at this second quilt. This style is called a crazy quilt. Some pieces are the same color, but no two pieces are the same size. They’re odd shapes. They come together at odd angles. This is an unpredictable quilt. Sometimes our lives are unpredictable, unpatterned, not neat or well-ordered. Well, there’s not one right way to be a quilt as long as the pieces are stitched together firmly. Both of these quilts will keep us warm and cozy. Both are beautiful and made with love. There’s not just one right way to be a Mormon woman, either, as long as we are firmly grounded in faith in the Savior, make and keep covenants, live the commandments, and work together in charity. All of us face different family circumstances and home situations. All of us need strength in dealing with them. This strength comes from faith in the Savior’s love and in the power of his atonement. If we trustingly put our hand in the Savior’s, we can claim the promise of the sacramental prayer to always have his Spirit with us. All problems are manageable with that strength, and all other problems are secondary in urgency to maintaining a strong spiritual life.”
Comment #1 by DeborahOctober 7th, 2007 at 8:48 amsister, daughter, wife IN families
Comment #2 by DeborahOctober 7th, 2007 at 8:49 amWhoa! you are fast (and furious).
Comment #3 by mamiOctober 7th, 2007 at 9:07 amMay I ask what was wrong with the talk Sister Beck really gave?
Comment #4 by mamacitaOctober 7th, 2007 at 9:14 amI am confused. You wanted her to give the talk you wrote above? I did not Tivo conference this morning, but I do remember enjoying her talk and my conscience hurting a bit as far as my parenting goes.
Comment #5 by CarolynOctober 7th, 2007 at 9:42 amI apologize–my eye for sublety is not what it should be–what does your post mean?
Heather writes: ” Ok, I’m walking away from the computer now.”
Good idea, Heather. I assume this is because you realized you missed a few spots on the floor, and so you’re going to re-mop it. And dust the end tables. After that, it’s off to iron a few dresses . . .
Comment #6 by KaimiOctober 7th, 2007 at 9:59 ammamacita and Carolyn-
Nothing is wrong with the talk that Sister Beck gave. She is an inspired servant of the Lord who, I’m sure, loves the sisters. I suppose my post is what I needed to hear, but didn’t, from a woman who is supposed to speak to all the sisters of the church.
Her talk left me in tears, and not the good kind. You could say (and, um, you might be right) that I’m in a vulnerable state because of nursing hormones and lack of sleep, but I didn’t feel uplifted by her talk at all, just beat down and further reminded of all my failings as a mother. Looking at the T&S thread, her talk obviously struck many women differently, and I’m glad others got inspiration and strength from it. I, personally, did not, and needed something different. So I wrote my own talk. Take it for what it’s worth. Which is probably not much, but, there you go.
Comment #7 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 10:34 amBut Heather, if you already know what you need to hear and are capable of telling it to yourself, then why do you need the authorities at all? I’m not trying to be snarky; I honestly am wondering what purpose general counsel serves in your spiritual life.
Comment #8 by RosalyndeOctober 7th, 2007 at 10:40 amHeather, you are not alone. I am not usually vocal about women’s issues, but this talk did not sit well with me. I felt hopeless. I felt like she focused on the temporal visible manifestations of our complex faith- things like haircuts, white shirts, clean houses- and encouraged us to meet those milestones.
I personally, while chosing to be a SAHM, do not find housework the be-all and end-all, nor do I find it fulfilling. Necessary, yes. But fullfilling to me as a daughter of God? No. And I don’t think the Lord cares how my house looks, but does care a great deal how my children are treadted and taught and loved.
I appreciated Sister Beck’s tone and the spirit of her talk, and I especially appreciated that she did not use the sing-song voice women often use in Conference, but I think by continually stressing LDS women should be the BEST at homemaking, she alienated a lot of women. It also pointed out areas where we already have stress and fear failure and judgement.
I would have loved to hear more about the love and service to our Lord, and less about being a good housewife. She was the only woman I heard this conference, a world stage, and she chose to focus on homemaking.
Am I only raising my daughter to grow up and produce more sons who can then go and change the world? Can’t I and my daughter(s) also change the world?
*putting soapbox away*
Comment #9 by Tracy MOctober 7th, 2007 at 10:48 amI also felt guilty after her talk (I’m also a nursing mother) but later felt that this talk was not intended to make me feel that way.
Comment #10 by Nancy R.October 7th, 2007 at 10:50 amI think many of us know that in order to be the “best” mother or wife, we must be in partnership with the Lord. We simply cannot do it alone. I think the umbrage some women are feeling comes from hearing a message to be the “best”, and not hearing the other, and very significant,half of the equation.
Comment #11 by ZinkaOctober 7th, 2007 at 11:07 amI’m wondering why she is the only woman we’ve heard from so far today?
I didn’t enjoy the talk either, probably because knowing very little about her other than her initial comments about service when she was first called, and was hoping to hear more about that, less about Windex.
Comment #12 by SueOctober 7th, 2007 at 11:12 am[…] (note, I’m certain President Beck is going to take flak for this talk from some in the Church, and particularly who frequent the Bloggernacle. Frankly I liked it, and it was something that we needed to hear). And, I was right. The onslaught and belittling has already begun. See here. […]
Pingback #13 by 177th Semiannual General Conference Sunday Morning Session « Messenger and AdvocateOctober 7th, 2007 at 11:24 amM&A- I hardly think “belittling” is what we are doing. Expressing our feelings, expressing disappointment? OK, but belittling? No.
Comment #14 by Tracy MOctober 7th, 2007 at 11:27 amRosalynde-
I know you’re not trying to be snarky, and even if you were, I know I’d probably deserve it. It’s not exactly the actions of a humble servant to say, “Hey, I don’t like what you are saying–say THIS!”
You ask a good question, and I don’t know that I have a good answer. I just felt so hopeless after her talk, so discouraged, and I wondered what would have made me feel less so. Hence the post.
And I’m not always very good at telling myself what I need to hear. Clearly. And, as has been pointed out over at T&S, what we need to hear and what we WANT to hear are hardly ever the same.
Comment #15 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 11:38 amOh, and Deborah, thanks for that quote. It’s a good one.
Comment #16 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 11:46 amElder Oaks laid it down in his talk, and did so without telling us to be glorified maids, indeed EXPECTING us to do better, but not keep a perfect house.
Comment #17 by Tracy MOctober 7th, 2007 at 11:52 amI thought the same thing, Tracy. What a great talk by Elder Oaks. He’s the man.
Comment #18 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 11:58 amHeather,
Comment #19 by mamiOctober 7th, 2007 at 12:01 pmAs much as I like your words, it could easily be torn to pieces as condescending and talking to us as if we are children with your overwhelming “buck-up little campers, you can do it” overtones.
My point is, I could easily take your words that way. We can take Sister Beck’s words what ever way we want too. I admit that I personally liked her talk and found it useful in my life. I didn’t take it to be a sermon on house cleaning, or appearances. I thought she was using examples of a show of faithfulness, not condemning our efforts.
I liked Sister Beck’s talk. There was a lot about it that I liked and agreed with. My only problem was what she said about being the best homemakers. Perhaps it was my own hardened heart because I HATE dishes. And at night I’m just TIRED and I don’t feel like making dinner. Perhaps it was the guilt that I was feeling. But I did enjoy the rest of her talk.
And my thought about Heather’s talk is that it is nice to hear the encouragement. Different people need to hear different things at different times. Today, she needed that. And she was able to do that, in writing her own “talk”.
Heather, I’m sure you’re doing fine. You’re exactly the mother that both of your children need. Sure, we all can improve, but God knew what and when we would improve and sent us the children that will encourage that growth in us and who will not only survive but thrive despite (or perhaps because of) our mistakes.
Comment #20 by Erin MarieOctober 7th, 2007 at 12:56 pmI told my husband that I could see this talk causing controversy to some of the women of the church. I myself, am torn. I believe her overall tone and admonition was great. However, I too felt a little alienated with her comments on housework, organization and even the desire to have children. For the record I do have a child and want more, but even the mere desire to have more children and all that being a SAHM mother encompasses, was not and is not an easy venture for me. However, in giving her the benefit of the doubt I think she was trying to elevate the importance of motherhood and talk about the importance of these tasks (housework and organization) as accomplishments and successes that may not always be counted as such since there is no monetary value and little worldly value attached to them. Like, “Hey maybe you didn’t make an influential power point presentation at work this week that won you the praise of your coworkers and peers, but your organization of the linen closet was awesome and important in its own right and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise! Way to go!”
Comment #21 by MiggyOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:04 pmHeather–this is an interesting conversation and it’s one I’ve had many times with my sister. Maybe some of you remember that during President Benson’s “era”, he stated flat-out that women should be in the home with their children. End of sentence. My sister, who unfortunately married an “upstanding” R.M. who became a druggie deadbeat, took extreme offense at Pres. Bensons’ statements since she had 3 children to support. I was of the opinion that your life is known to God, He knows your situation, you should not take offense at the prophet who was probably making a statement in the general and not the specific. My sister felt that all words coming from over the pulpit should be those of encouragement.
I am not of that opinion. I want speakers who challenge me and call me onto the carpet, so to speak. I would have been bored stiff by the above talk (i’m not trying to rip on you–I think you rock!!). I always LOVED the talks by Elder Maxwell because he was always calling us on our hypocrises and inconsistencies. I love Elder Eyring because almost all his talks are on (in)gratitude.
Comment #22 by CarolynOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:19 pmI am a crappy housewife, so I found Sister Beck’s talk to be mildly electrifying and her words challenged me. I like that. I find talks of encouragement to be boring and “fluffy”, thankfully there are differing personalities among the general authorities so we all can have our hearts touched during conference.
I think a lot of what is potentially difficult about her words is the mental association we all make between the word “homemaking/homemaker” and the mundane physical chores that pretty much none of us love. I don’t think she meant that we should have the most perfectly clean and organized houses, or cook the most intricate meals when she said we should be the best home-makers. Home-making is precisely that. Making a mere place into a home. Home should be where our family feels safe to question and comment and ask and learn and test boundaries and be corrected. With the gospel in our lives I think THAT is what we should be the best at. The physical mundane tasks are just part of meeting the physical needs of our family. They are important and necessary, yes…. but they do not even come close to making a place a home.
Comment #23 by emOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:22 pmI used to take these RS talks a lot harder than I do now. Now, I just try to let the spirit tell me the parts that are for me, and try to have charity about the rest of the stuff that might be for some other woman who really wants and needs it.
”
Comment #24 by C JonesOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:25 pmMy favorite line: “Mothers who know do less
While I found lots to agree with in Pres. Becks talk there was some I chose to forget. As I read your post Heather, I was thinking “what was wrong with the talk?” Then I read more peoples comments and my journal and remembered what she had said. I took what I needed out of that talk and ignored the rest. Probably not the best attitude to have, but it suits me:) I figure spending quality time with my kids is a lot more important than keeping my house spotless, which will never happen. I’m sure she didn’t mean her talk to belittle or even allienate some women, but I’m sure there will be some that take it that way and will use it as an excuse to leave or hate the church. I like your talk Heather, maybe you should be the ghost writer for the presidency!:)
Comment #25 by TrixieOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:27 pmHeather, I won’t bring up our conversation on T&S. I just want to add a different observation:
Sister Beck’s talk was exactly what MANY women needed to hear; Elder Oaks’ talk probably was what the other MANY women needed to hear. It probably was best that the order occur as it did, so that those who cried over Sister Beck’s words could find solace in Elder Oaks’ words - rather than those who needed Elder Oaks’ talk would leave feeling crushed by Sister Beck’s. Personally, I choose to look at the big picture and see the inspiration in the combination of talks. But, then, I’m not a woman, so what so I know?
Comment #26 by RayOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:28 pmI’ll apologize upfront for the length, but I feel I should share this viewpoint. (I really am trying to be more concise and short in my comments… I promise!)
I listened to Sis Beck with mixed emotions. I understood what she was trying to say and agree with her, and yet I fought an internal guilt trip battle because I do not measure up to all of her examples of housekeeping, nurturing, conserving my limited strength…
We DO need mothers who know. We DO need to be steadfast and immovable. We DO have a powerful influence for good.
At the end of Conf, I read a text message from my oldest son who is at college. I want to share it, because hopefully it will help some of you (esp Heather) and you can apply the basics of what was said to your particular situation.
He said, “See? Told you you’re a great mom. [Sis Beck] even said so.” My response: “Thanks. Part of me thot ‘I am doing ok’ and another part of me thot ‘I am not doing well enough.’ I guess if my kids can point to me and say I’ve done well enough then it IS enough! Thanks… I needed this affirmation right now!”
The biggest thing I have walked away with is PERSPECTIVE. I may have been disheartened a bit as I listened to Sis Beck, but I know she is right and inspired, her intentions are sincere, and she was speaking of the ideal to a worldwide audience. But if my kids think that I am doing all right in my inadequate but sincere and loving attempts to teach, guide, train, and strengthen them and my family… I can’t have failed too much!
And so I will re-read my notes, decide on what I can improve, and work toward that as I thank God for my kids who amazingly really do appreciate my limited efforts and are turning out to be good people despite my many weaknesses and imperfections!
I hope we can each find that balance and perspective in our own lives and circumstances.
Comment #27 by Michelle AMOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:34 pmI was feeling terrible after hearing Sister Beck’s talk. I am not the greatest house-keeper but I have always felt like I was a great mom, wife, friend, daughter, Young Women’s president, sister and member of the church. But after hearing her talk I couldn’t believe the feelings of inadequacy that I felt. I cook dinner everynight, I do laundry every day and I make my bed every morning but I have closets stuffed with junk and rooms that I close the door to when people come over. That is all I could focus on after her talk.
I had a chance to talk to my mother-in-law between sessions - we are out of state visiting them. She told me I was crazy - but I still felt that way. I know it is probably guilt and I KNOW I can improve in so many ways. But boy, was I glad when during Elder Oaks talk - my mother-in-law leaned over and said - see, you are a good mom. We eat together, we have family home evening and scriptures.
Maybe I will find the will power or motivation or whatever it will take to make it so I don’t get so down on my self when the subject of home-making comes up - but maybe I wont. I may not be the best house-keeper but I am a good home-maker. My kids have a home that they feel comfortable in and it is a home where the spirit is welcome.
Comment #28 by JoleneOctober 7th, 2007 at 1:54 pmThis is a great discussion–thanks to everybody for chiming in. I also want to thank everybody for the respectful tone you are using in reference to Sis. Beck. I realize that my comments could have led to a discussion that could have shown disrespect for her, and I appreciate that nobody has gone that way. I do have enormous respect for her and the challenges she must face in her calling.
And thanks for all of the perspectives on the talk. I like reading what other women felt as they listened to her.
Comment #29 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 2:41 pmWhat are the fruits of the spirit? I would say that at the end of Jolene’s comment where she mentions feeling good about FHE, prayers, her comfortable home, etc. are examples of some of them.
Comment #30 by C JonesOctober 7th, 2007 at 2:46 pmAnd what are the tools of the devil? Guilt, feeling inadequate. . . It’s important to distinguish who is saying what to us.
Well I was uplifted and called to the mat at the same time. This year we pulled all of our kids out of the public school system and brought them home. This was a prayerful decision, VERY PRAYERFUL. Sister Beck’s talk (while not about Homeschooling) made me feel as if she was backing me up in that decision. Hold your comments on HS’ing please that was just how some of her words touched ME.
As for the house and its upkeep…ugghhhh! While I try to justify my messy, cluttered home with things like “it just shows how much time I spend doing things with the kids doing together stuff” Her talk also brought to mind another thought - I am always asking my kids “if Heavenly Father were riding in the van with us would you still talk to your sister/brother that way?” So let me apply sister Beck’s talk to that same senerio…. If Heavenly Father stopped by would you be comfortable letting him come in and visit? I know some may say He wouldn’t be there to see your home He would be there to see you. Ahhh but I would be so obsessed with explaining away my messes….ohhh I don’t know if this makes any sense at all but I do know that I don’t need to be June Cleaver, I do however need to work on keeping my house to a point where I am not kicking things under the couch when visitors come knocking unexpectedly.
Heather
Comment #31 by HeatherOctober 7th, 2007 at 2:48 pmI’d just like to point out that the phrase she used was “homemaking” and not “housekeeping”. There’s a big difference. She wants us to bring the spirit into our home, to be happy with the successes we have in raising our family in the gospel, and to feel fulfilled by things that the Lord deems important, rather than what the world deems important.
Comment #32 by Susie J.October 7th, 2007 at 3:06 pmShe didn’t say our house needs to be spotless. She didn’t say that the dishes have to be kept done all the time or that we should never lose our temper with our kids when they flush our favorite hair clip (ummmm, no personal experience speaking here, ahem). She said that we need to be the best we can be, and to set an example to our children (and to the world) by raising them in a gospel centered home.
Nobody said that your daughters should not grow up to have a career… just that they need to be prepared to take care of a family someday. Because, let’s face it, as much as moms are working outside the home these days, and even making world-changing history, they are usually the ones who ALSO take care of the house and family needs when they come home in the evening. (I know there are exceptions, but they are few and far between) Our daughters need to know how to do that before they enter the real world, or they will be hit in the face with a hard reality when the time comes. Heck, our sons should know how to do it, too. Their future wives will thank us for it.
I can’t remember what exactly it was that she said, but I remember turning to my husband at one point and saying, “She just insulted my mother.”
Comment #33 by Susan MOctober 7th, 2007 at 3:27 pmI had to take care of some of those “mundane” housekeeping tasks, but I came back to re-read this post/comments.
I believe Em sums it up perfectly by saying, “Home-making is precisely that. Making a mere place into a home. Home should be where our family feels safe to question and comment and ask and learn and test boundaries and be corrected. With the gospel in our lives I think THAT is what we should be the best at.”
And Sue mentioned not knowing much about Sis Beck beyond her initial talk on service. She was the 1st counselor in the YW General Presidency prior to being called as RS Gen Pres. Having served in YW for 4.5 years and hearing her speak numerous times, I can tell you that she is AMAZING! I have ALWAYS enjoyed her perspective, her testimony, her talks, her love of the Savior and the members and the Church. Honestly, I think that’s what threw me for a loop with her talk today. It seemed different than any talk I’ve ever heard her give. FWIW, I believe we will see great things and come to understand Sis Beck better as she serves the RS sisters of the world.
Comment #34 by Michelle AMOctober 7th, 2007 at 3:51 pmHeather-
I agree with you. Though Sister Beck’s message was a worthwhile one, her presentation (in my opinion) was horrible. Why not a “look what we can accomplish as mothers in Zion” approach? Why not inspire us to do better, rather than attempt to browbeat us into obedience? I have to say, her finger wagging made me sorely tempted to hit the “mute” button.
Comment #35 by JanelleOctober 7th, 2007 at 4:12 pm“She said that we need to be the best we can be”
Actually, she didn’t. I would be less uspet if she had. She said we had to be the best. Period. That’s a whole different ball of wax. She said the same thing in her RS talk, a number of times, which bothered me too.
“Being the best” denotes an impossible standard that we are expected to live up to, one that implies competition, comparison, and an inevitable failure. And that’s where I think Sis. Beck could have changed her language without changing the overall power of her message.
Comment #36 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 4:17 pmIt’s interesting the take different people take on Sis Beck’s talk. What I took away from it was exactly what Em said. Home making. I also noticed though that every time she mentioned anything in the way of homekeeping it was in reference to the reverence a certain mother felt toward something else. I noticed the reference to the mothers in AFrica whose children had white shirts and their hair was in perfect condition even though they still had to walk several miles in the dust. I felt she mentioned those things because she was bringing to mind the reverence those mothers felt for the church and the sacredness they wanted to instill in their children to something they held dear to their hearts. It’s kind of like, what do you wear to the temple? Your grungiest dress or your prettiest? She mentioned the examples of the mothers that influenced the children. That the mothers KNEW it. That’s what I felt was the point of her whole talk. I honestly didn’t see the homekeeping stuff that aparently others did. I saw her telling us to make sure that we KNOW and place reverence for our homes and families. To make sure that our children know that we know.
The whole time during her talk I kept thinking of my mother and how many times I got through periods of trial in my life because I knew my mother would not have led me astray. I knew my mother taught me well. And she taught me by the things she did and the reverence she showed to different things. Honestly my mother’s house was oftentimes not clean. She tried to get it that way so that my dad who had been at work all day could come home to a clean house. I used to think that “ugh she’s one of those, I must clean my house because my husband wants it that way.” type people. I know exactly what half of you are thinking about her. It was only til later in life that I realized she cleaned her house because of the love she felt for him. She didn’t want to have him come home and feel that he needed to come home and help her clean the house, not in the I can do it way but in the service type of way. My dad was like that if he sees something that needs to get done he’ll do it. My mom in trying to show her love for him and help him relax would try to remove things that needed to get done so that he could relax. His time at home was precious to her and she made sure that his time was available to spend with her and us as kids. I get it now. With my husband in medical school I cherish the time he spends at home with us. He is also one of those people who will do the dishes if he sees they are not done, because he feels he’s helping me with my own work, read: I must have had a hard day with t he kids and will help me with whatever needs to get done. When he’s home I want him spending time with us not doing the idshes or some other menial task that needs to get done. I want him to chase the kids around. I think that what my mother taught me. She cherished that time. I now cherish that time and I teach my kids that in order to be able to play the way we want, we need to have it clean so daddy can relax with us. I place that emphasis with my kids. my laundry is hardly ever done but hey I do what I can.
I believe that was the point of the talk. OUr children will KNOW the truth of things by what we place emphacsis on. My mothers emphasis was the time we could spend with daddy. she also taught us reverence for the scriptures the same way, love of the hymns (she’d blast it all morning to wake us up, she’d also sing at the top of her lungs, way off key) as well as dropping everything to serve others that need help. The housekeeping stuff inevitably gets done by the sacredness we hold to other things. Not the emphasis on housekeeping but the emphasis on what is most sacred is what I feel the talk was about.
As for Elder Oaks’ talk. um I kind of fell asleep during the break and woke up to hear Elder Oaks say something to the effect of us not surfing the internet at the expense of time with our families. My reaction? “Ack! Crap! Guilty!” So my kids are asleep and I’m on the internet. The half of Elder Oak’s talk that I heard was more condeming to me. Hee I guess I need to work on some things.
Comment #37 by NestleOctober 7th, 2007 at 4:44 pmum yeah it’s kind of like “be thee therefore perfect” and yet we don’t complain about Him do we?
Comment #38 by NestleOctober 7th, 2007 at 4:50 pmsorry that slipped out. I have not tact nor person skills, just ask glittersmama.
Comment #39 by NestleOctober 7th, 2007 at 4:51 pmSusie- You are right she did say “homemaking” not “housekeeping” But then there were flashes of scenes with windex and papertowels. And I do believe she talked about having our children do household chores with us. Sorry I don’t remember the exact wording. To me homemaking is different than housekeeping but at the same time (IMO) they go hand in hand. My home feels more home-like and less house-like when it is tidy (it only sparkled the day before the movers came to unload our stuff…never to sparkle again *sigh*)
My hubby is the super organized one and since he has been deployed the house has sort of fallen apart in places. I am trying to get things together for his return but I have a long way to go.
I think President Beck’s talk was good for me and for others who needed to hear her words. It’s sort of like those Sundays when you are sitting in the sacrament meeting trying to look interested in what is being said by the speaker. Not every talk can be for you at that moment, at that time. Someome somewhere was glued to their seat feeling as if that talk was meant just for their ears. Somewhere there was a sister sitting on her floor picking out dried play dough wondering why she thought she could be a good mother to so many children and how at the same time she could be a good wife and all that comes with that. She sat listening to President Beck and instead of feeling beaten up by her words she found encouragement knowing that she has hope, knowing that not all is lost.
Her wording may not have settled well with some but for others it is exactly what they needed to hear.
Heather
Comment #40 by HeatherOctober 7th, 2007 at 4:52 pmNestle-
Your mother sounds like an amazing woman. Thanks for sharing.
Comment #41 by Heather O.October 7th, 2007 at 4:54 pmTo say my mother is intimidating is an understatement. I just know that my kids will love what I love and place reverence on what I do. Just like I did with what my mother taught me. It’s exactly what Wiz said in her entry of Cause and Effect? or a Crap Shoot? I believe that’s what Sis Beck was trying to get across. Our children will KNOW what we KNOW and keep sacred that which we keep sacred. That’s why she wanted us to KNOW for ourselves. To be the best (the best to me connotates doing what we should be doing, praying, reading scriptures.. etc).
Comment #42 by NestleOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:05 pmWe can only do that when we love ourselves, when we know that we are daughters of God and he wants us to be happy, not slaves or anything along those lines. When we serve out of love it’s amazing how cleaning the house doesn’t seem so mundane anymore. If any of you have ever only had your husband home for an hour a day and he wants to help you with your burdens too you don’t want everything to be perfect so all he has to do is sit and talk to you and the kids. It stops being work and becomes something else entirely. Believe me when my husband has time off my house goes to pot, mostly because I know that he has time now to spend with the kids even if he does the dishes or the laundry with me. It’s all about love.
A little about Sis. Beck’s personal life might interest you. My father-in-law is cousins with both Sis. Beck and Sis. Thompson (the 2nd counselor in the RS) so he knows them both well. Sis. Beck is from a family of 10 children but was only able to have 3 of her own because of health issues. She struggled with health for 25 years and had good days and not so good days, too, so I’m sure if anyone knows about how it feels to be overwhelmed and have feelings of inadequacy, it’s probably her. Apparently as soon as she was called to the General YW Board, her health immediately improved and she’s been able to serve largely without the problems that hindered her in the past. (I honestly don’t know how much they bother her today, but I know it’s much better than it used to be.)
I didn’t have a negative reaction to her talk at all because, like many of you said, I was looking at the homemaking aspect as much more than just keeping a clean house. I think it encompasses teaching and nurturing children and having the time to care for them physically but also emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. I’m sure with her health issues that Sis. Beck’s house was not always spotless and she probably had many days where she wished that she could do more. I felt like more or less she and Elder Oaks were saying the same thing, and I don’t feel like she was browbeating or finger wagging at all. But that was just how I felt at the end and can appreciate that her talk could have a different effect on other women than it did on me. I think it will take a re-reading of the talk when it comes out in print and serious thought and prayer about the things said to understand just exactly what it means for me individually and what I should be the most concerned about for my own life. And the rest I just won’t really worry about.
Comment #43 by StarababaOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:09 pmI loved Sister Beck’s talk. I felt justified and uplifted because I am a “woman who knows”. She gave all women credit who know all the mothers of people in the scripture and us today. I am so glad she said “we believe in having children”. Isn’t that what we believe here at Mormon Mommy Wars? My house has never been clean. I felt a little bad about not teaching my kids to work perfectly but I did teach them the gospel and they are running with it. Actually the 3 married ones have tidy spouses.
I felt so good because I know the gospel is true and I have been able to pass it on. I also loved the part that women who know use less worldly things.
About being best— in the general RS meeting last week she said:
President Hinckley’s plea to us is:
“We have a greater challenge than we realize. . . .
“ . . . ‘Do the best you can.’ But I want to emphasize that it be the very best. . . . We are capable of doing so much better. . . .
“ . . . We must get on our knees and plead with the Lord for help and strength and direction. We must then stand on our feet and move forward.” Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting, Jan. 10, 2004, 21.
So the message I got was “you did good, do better still” and I can with the Lord’s help.
Comment #44 by Joyce in OregonOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:24 pmI am a voracious note-taker, and just re-read my notes. I wrote about her focus on nurturing, and about housekeeping but not homemaking (which could easily be my oversight). I also wrote that women who know: *conserve their limited strength for where it matters most, *do less so have more time at home, *choose carefully and don’t try to do it all, and *don’t give up when there are difficult times.
I look forward to being able to read Sis Beck’s talk, so I can digest it in terms of understanding what she actually said and meant, and not just of how I reacted. I think there are a lot of gems in her talk (the funniest: the MTC should be a review not a revelation). I overlooked many of these because of my guilt tripping… I consider myself to be a woman who knows, so hopefully I will be able to read it the way she intended it.
Comment #45 by Michelle AMOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:30 pmI really liked her talk. I actually laughed at the windex picture because I thought it was kind of hokey, but maybe she didn’t pick it. I am not opposed to encouragement to teach my kids how to keep a home tidy because…isn’t that part of our job, to teach our kids how to be great adults? Trust me, I am not a clean freak. I could care less about things sparkling, and I (and my husband) are ok with that. But I try to have a house of order, as in…things are pretty presentable, unscary, and I know what’s going on in the home and have a semi-routine and try to have a happy, loving home. Sorry for the run-on sentence.
I really think that Sis. Beck could care less how many times we sweep the floor each day. I don’t think that was what the talk was about. And I think that if she knew the heartache some were feeling she would feel terrible about that. I have really liked her YW talks, maybe she’s just new at this.
None of us are great moms. I sure am not. My kids eat McDonalds, sometimes I am on the internet instead of reading to them, looking at my floor right now there are lots of dust bunnies and my daughter just went to bed on a blanket because I didn’t feel like putting the clean sheets on tonight. But my house is basically in order, I teach my kids constantly about Christ and gospel principles, there is love in our home….so I think the point is to look at the big picture.
Another conference talk I try to keep in mind? David Bednar’s conference address about not being so easily offended. :0)
Heather, I don’t know you at all, but I bet you are a phenomenal mom. Don’t be so hard on yourself. I sincerely do not think that was Sis. Beck wanted you to take from it. And guess what, we all kick toys under the couch when visitors come over. That’s why they make couches so high.
Comment #46 by AmyOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:37 pmAmy- You mean you do it on purpose? The toys are just purpetually there for me. cool, I might do that now. hee.
Comment #47 by NestleOctober 7th, 2007 at 5:50 pmhttp://broadcast.lds.org/genconf/2007/10/40/GC_2007_10_44_BeckJB__02381_eng_.mp3
This is the link to listen to the talk. I just listened to it again so I would be able to comment here…i was listening today but distracted enough not to understand what the big debate was.
Here are a few thoughts:
1. She does mention that fathers and mothers are equal partners, but she was talking to just the women
2. Speakers often talk to just a specific group within the church, to youth or to primary children, or to grandparents who are encouraged to serve as senior missionaries, etc.
3. She gave examples of attitudes/attributes of mothers who know, such as those who dress their sons in white shirts to walk to church in the dust–I dont think she was saying we all need to do just that. Do we take it literally to be just like the people that President Monson talks about in all his stories?
4. She gave examples of qualities that we can nurture so that we can be women who know…I don’t think it was supposed to be a guilt trip, but counsel on how to live like the covenant women that we are, right?
5. She used the word homemaking. We are taught in the Bible Dictionary that only the home compares to the temple in sacredness. Obviously there are things we do at the temple we dont do at home, and there are things we do at home that we don’t do at the temple (it is at home that we live the covenants that we make in the temple) I think she is simply aiming to give encouragement for us to make our homes sacred enough where the gospel can be taught and the spirit can be felt, and we all know you can feel the spirit anywhere, clean or dirty. She said to pattern our homes after the temple in implementing organization, patience, love, work, etc. That is certainly a pattern we can all try to implement as she suggested–there is always room for improvement, which is why we listen to conference every 6 months and not just once a decade.
6. Then she encouraged us to spend time with our children: eating together, working together, reading, laughing together etc.
I think she chose her words carefully and was encouraging us to raise up the next generation in righteousness by implementing righteous practices in our homes. What is wrong with that message? There are so many temptations and distractions that I think she’s right on to remind us that the most important teachings and patterns of behavior are learned at home. Maybe the reason some were offended or discouraged is because you are already doing these things and just wanted her approval/encouragement–in that case she is preaching to the choir. She’s talking to all of us, but will make the most influence for the people who don’t yet know how to raise up a righteous generation.
Comment #48 by JennyOctober 7th, 2007 at 6:30 pmMy aunt and uncle left the church… my aunt was offended..starting with something very similar to this.
Comment #49 by lammyannOctober 7th, 2007 at 7:05 pmThey didn’t intend to leave the church but they let it fester…eat at them…and every contrary thing that came up after that just alienated them more and more until they left completely.
Do your best.
That is what the Lord asks of us.
Period.
Heather’s right…not every talk is meant for me. So I take it or leave it.
I work better that way!
Conserve their LIMITED STRENGTH? Says you.
Also, the whole transcript is up at FMH for those who are interested, thanks to Tanya S.
What a train wreck.
Comment #50 by SueOctober 7th, 2007 at 8:19 pm“If Heavenly Father stopped by would you be comfortable letting him come in and visit?”
If Heavenly Father stopped by, the last thing in the world I would ever be embarrassed about would be the state of my living room. If this is what we are teaching our children - that Heavenly Father is concerned with the outward manifestations of what we see as righteousness, whether it’s how we dress for church, or how tidy our homes are, then I think we are giving them the wrong message.
It’s important to, as a family, take care of and nurture each other. It’s not important to live in a model home. (Not that Sister Beck said that.)
Heavenly Father is not the Fly Lady.
Comment #51 by SueOctober 7th, 2007 at 8:52 pmI’m sure that Sister Beck had the best of intentions.But…
I would love to see a woman speak in conference who I can truly relate to. Somebody who seems to understand the modern world that we as women and mothers live in.
Our worth is not determined by how clean the toilet is, or whether we’re perfectly organized. I think we should all write out the talk we wished we’d heard today. I see no need to put a stranger’s advice over my own wisdom.
Comment #52 by LaurieOctober 7th, 2007 at 10:05 pmSue- I said I ask my children about the way they talk to each other. I only applied the cleanliness of the house as another way to look at that same concept. It isn’t something I have ever said to my kids. No I don’t think that my house would be the first thing I would think about if Heavenly Father showed up at the door. Truth be told though I would feel very aware of the state of my home. But that is just me.
This talk did not make me feel guilty it just made me think. I imagine that is what talks are supposed to do, make us think.
Comment #53 by HeatherOctober 8th, 2007 at 1:49 am“Heavenly Father is not the Fly Lady.”
Niiice.
Comment #54 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 2:57 amI personally loved Sister Becks talk. I myself am not the perfect homemaker, but I do try. I think in a day and age where homemaking is made out to be degrading she stood up for what is right. I do believe as women of God we should be the best homemakers around. A clean home is a godly home. The scriptures tell us so. On those days when I am just too tired (or is it lazy?) to clean up and my house is a wreck, I am embarrased if a visitor arrives unexpectedly at my door…let alone if the Savior happened to stop by. Look at the temples, they are never cluttered or dirty and the spirit feels comfortable there. Maybe we should think about WHY did she feel so impressed to address these things over the pulpit? Obviously, she has seen and been impressed that there is a problem with this in the church and our society.
Most importantly, Sister Beck is called of God. She was inspired to say what she said. Gordon B. Hinckley as our prophet supports and stands by what she said. (If he didn’t he would have stopped her). Sister Beck told us what Heavenly Father wanted us to hear, and if that stings, we should look inside and fix what we feel guilty about.
Comment #55 by RachaelOctober 8th, 2007 at 4:34 amIt think many are missing the fact that the leaders in conference are CALLED BY THE PROPHET of God to speak in conference. These talks are thought about, prayed about and worried over for MONTHS before. This is not your, um I have a talk next Sunday I guess I’ll throw something together. She is called by a prophet of God to have stewardship over the women of the church.
I guess with all the angst against her now she’s going to have to start prerecording her talks like Elder Maxwell had to do for a while in anticipating of the outburst that might possibly happen when someone disagrees with what she says.
Comment #56 by NestleOctober 8th, 2007 at 4:37 amI have been following this discussion with interest because I am not a mom yet and that is a CHOICE (gasp) that my husband (and I) {sic} have made. We are, however, going through the adoption process so I have spent a lot of time thinking about how my like will change as a mom. The thing that has always struck me is how guilty people (mainly women) feel about their lives sometimes. My husband get annoyed when the workshop is a mess, but he never feels guilt. I, on the other hand, feel badly if someone stops by and the dishes aren’t done. When I heard Sister Beck talk about women who choose not to have children, I thought, “Here we go again!” but they I stopped myself. Adoption is an option that we have prayerfully chosen. Heavenly Father has already told us it is the best choice for us. So, I am not going to feel bad about it. I wonder sometimes if our real problem with talks like this is linked to the fact that we feel judged by others all the time. From the time I was young (I grew up in the church) I heard how we are an example to the world and everybody is watching. Well, the truth is, most people couldn’t care less what I am up to!
Comment #57 by LisaOctober 8th, 2007 at 4:47 amLisa–
Comment #58 by JennyOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:06 amshe didn’t say giving birth to your own flesh and blood is the only way to have children. She said that faithful daughters of God desire children–big difference. She also said that the value that women place on motherhood is eternal. You can desire children a year from now or three years from now…you can value children before having them (and I think you can without guilt do this if you are waiting intentionally to have children) and still be considered a righteous woman.
After reading all the comments and a few others here and there I must give you my perspective. I am now a grandmother. My daughters are all married and living far from home. I have a little house that is empty, and for the most part clean. Still needs to be dusted and I hate dusting. What I am trying to illustrate is that I am not in the thick of it with all of you any longer. My battles have been fought and my role as supporter is in full mode.
What I heard from Sis Beck was completely different. I told two of my daughters, when they called and mentioned the talk, “It’s weird, I felt she was still in the YW mode. She has yet to grow into her RS president role and maybe next time she’ll talk to the women of the church instead of the YW”. That’s how one grandma heard her yesterday. It’s a little perspective.
You young mothers are doing the very best for your families. You may not do it as I would. Or as your friend down the street. But, Father in Heaven knows each of you and knows the family you are in and wouldn’t have it any other way. Down the road a bit, you’ll get the text messages from your young people telling you how great you are. Yes they do come, for all of us, the notes of validation from the most important people.
Don’t ever let anyone else make you feel you’re not good enough. In my eyes, you’re all the best!
Comment #59 by chroniclerOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:43 amHeather, I’m sorry you had such a hard time with this talk. I knew a lot of people would when I heard it. It wasn’t the most comfortable thing for me to hear either.
I really appreciated what Dan said, “She’s giving something to aspire to.”
I’m not remotely a “mother who knows” according to the standards she lays out but I’m not remotely “perfect” either and God has told me to be perfect. There are a lot of seemingly impossible standards we’re supposed to reach for. The key is to do the best we can at the most important things.
Apparently Elder Perry gave a great talk in priesthood session about raising the bar higher than you can easily reach. If you know there’s no chance you’ll miss the bar, then it isn’t high enough to stretch you.
There have been a lot of fabulous talks over the years, encouraging women, telling us how great we are and urging us to try a little harder.
Maybe Heavenly Father inspired her to give this talk because he thinks we’re big girls and we can take a bit of a kick in the pants. Maybe he wanted it to hit a nerve. President Beck had to know this talk would hit a nerve with women of the church. I would not be surprised if she was very hesitent to give the talk but was following a direct prompting from the Lord. Who wants to give that talk? Nobody. I was proud of her for delivering it, regardless of how she knew it would be received.
“Heavenly Father is not the Fly Lady” has to be the best thing I’ve read all week.
Comment #60 by daring oneOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:50 am“Look at the temples, they are never cluttered or dirty and the spirit feels comfortable there.” As someone said over on FMH - temples are clean because nobody lives there. There are no two year olds running around peeing on stuff. Anyway, I don’t think anyone is saying that homemaking is degrading. That isn’t the point either. This isn’t us vs. them.
Comment #61 by SueOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:55 amAll the talks in conference were very direct, if anyone cared to quiet their own egos to listen…I’m thankful that she didn’t pussyfoot around the subject. that we’re great, and we can do it… bla bla. She gave very specific examples and things to target. Who could ask for more, make a list, check it off. If you don’t check of everything everyday are you failing? NO, but give yourself something to strive toward. An outline given by a woman called of God who, undoubtedly prayed and wrote and rewrote her talk with the Lord’s guidance to reach women, with, as shown at all these blogs, was a desperately needed message. I see the responses here are what separate the Wheat from the Chaff…
Comment #62 by ASavageOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:57 amI thought that it was interesting that another talk that session referenced Mary and Martha, pointing out that Martha was doing good, but not choosing the best. It almost seemed to be putting Sis. Beck’s “windex” type comments in perspective.
Comment #63 by PowersThatBeOctober 8th, 2007 at 5:58 am“I see the responses here are what separate the Wheat from the Chaff…”
Nice of you to decide who the wheat is and who the chaff is. Funny, I thought that was something only God could do. I’m sure he will appreciate your assistance.
I LOVED Brother Oaks talk. Loved it. I walked away from that talk with some strong ideas about how I needed to do some changing and reprioritizing. He made me see some issues in our family, and made me want to think about what we could do to be better, to change.
Sister Beck’s talk, for reasons I’m too tired to analyze right now, made me feel irritable and made me feel like giving up. I will never be a Mother Who Knows. I will never be The Best. I don’t even think I want to aspire to that. I want to aspire to love my kids and DH, have a home that we all feel loved and comfortable in, and to try to follow the Savior. Lists of specific ways in which we can become better homemakers and THE BEST just make me cranky, and sure don’t seem to have much to do with the Savior. Lists make me cranky. But then, I’m chaff, so take that for what it’s worth.
Comment #64 by SueOctober 8th, 2007 at 6:05 amOK, I admit that I didn’t read all of the above posts
I would like to say that Sister Becks talk did make me feel a little guilty… but it also helped me to feel like keeping my house tidy and doing the laundry really does make a difference. That it’s not only the fact that I like my house to look nice, but that it really has an impact on the rest of my family and especially my children. That it is indead worth wroking a little harder at. I’m a procrastinator and tend to procrastinate till housework is a nightmare. I’ve started today and working to change that and Sister Becks talk helps me to have the drive to at least start.
Comment #65 by AprilOctober 8th, 2007 at 6:07 amShe’s calling some women out, it’s needed. They are betraying themselves when they hide behind their own hangups. Her ya go: Broken heart, contrite spirit, surrender your will… Let the Lord be your partner in marriage and parenting, the yoke will be lighter. I say it, I can and will apply it, I’m working on it!
Comment #66 by ASavageOctober 8th, 2007 at 6:08 amI didn’t cry, but it was good for me to know so many did. I wonder sometimes how the church would run if it were peopled by characters like me, who sift the counsel and never feel immediately obligated to do anything. Possibly nothing would get done. Or maybe it would, though slowly. Maybe it wouldn’t all hold together, if we were all as not proactive as me.
Comment #67 by JohnnaOctober 8th, 2007 at 6:55 amOh, I’m so bad at keeping my house clean. And I don’t have the excuse of kids (yet), and have been way overusing the “I’m pregnant and tired and nauseous” excuse which has resulted in my poor DH having to take care of everything and getting stressed out.
While I think some of the intent of the talk got a little lost among some of the phrases used, hearing it and Elder Oaks’ talk, and reading all the discussion about Sister Beck’s talk among the Bloggernacle, has got me motivated, for possibly the second time ever in my married life, to do the darn dishes.
My house is not likely to ever be spotless, unless my mom comes to visit and cleans it for me. But it was a good reminder to me that the Spirit, just like me and my husband, has an easier time dwelling in a reasonably clean and tidy environment. So if doing some dishes, and doing some laundry, and giving my toilets a desperately needed wipedown will help the Spirit dwell more strongly in my home, then I’m going to do it. My family needs the Spirit right now, to comfort and guide and help answer our prayers, and I am finally, finally motivated to clean. I’m grateful for that motivation, it’s something I’ve been trying to find for years without luck (my mother tried to teach me, but it never quite got through my head what the point was). So off I go to cheerfully clean my house, and I don’t know what could be better than being cheerful about it for once.
Comment #68 by kaduseyOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:07 amkadusey, my 4 year old has picked up on my pregnant complaining, and now goes around saying “I’m just a little pregnant right now” when he doesn’t want to do what he’s asked.
Comment #69 by ASavageOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:12 amI saw her talk as motivation as well, cheers!
I am relieved to know that I wasn’t the only one who cried during Sister Beck’s talk. I know I’m doing most of what she talked about, and yet still felt so inadequate (although I’m sure some of that had to do with trying to wrangle my kids and simultaneously listen to her talk). I believe whole-heartedly that her words were inspired. Looks like I’ll have to re-read her talk, pray about it, and reconcile myself with it.
Comment #70 by ChristinaOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:16 amI think all the critics out there need to listen to the talk again…you are all taking her words out of context and putting words in her mouth that she did not say. She didn’t say to have an immaculate house, she said “Growth happens best in a house of order” and order is relative, right? She didn’t say to be the best housekeepers, but that “LDS women should be the best homemakers in the world” (and she said that nurturing is another word for homemaking). She didn’t say to have a house as clean as the temple, but to pattern our homes after principles learned in the temple, and listed organization, love, patience, and work. What is wrong with that? Lots of general authority addresses give lists of what we can do better and give us direction of how to live the gospel better!
And I think you are all being super hard on yourselves when you say, “I can never be a woman who knows.” If you are a covenant woman who is striving to keep the commandments and are striving to teach your children the gospel at home, YOU ARE A WOMAN WHO KNOWS and YOU ARE THE WOMEN who will raise up a righteous generation!
Comment #71 by JennyOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:19 amI appreciated her direct tone. She delivered her talk without the sing-song voice. I felt that she was inspired to reiterate the importance of the role of mothers.
Personally, I was not looking for a pep-talk. I needed a reminder that what I am doing matters and that I can do more.
I did not feel like the bulk of her talk related to house cleaning. To me, her talk was more about mothers having a testimony of the gospel and putting their priority on family.
I am not the best housekeeper, I fall short there more often than I’d like to admit. But I find far more peace in my home when it is orderly and clean than when it isn’t that way. My family is also far more peaceful when our home is neat. So I do think that there is some relevance in that subject.
I do not think that she was nit-picking about my housekeeping, but rather reminding me of my own priorities, the choice to be a mother, and the blessings and responsibilities of that role.
According to the church website, the online text will be available in English on Thursday. Elder Oaks’ and Elder Eyring’s talks were especially meaningful to me.
Comment #72 by rynellOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:34 amOk, Just went back and listened to Sister Beck’s talk. I was thoroughly uplifted by it this time around. Justified instead of frustrated. Second time’s a charm.
Comment #73 by ChristinaOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:54 amI think we need to understand that as a woman in her level of stewardship/authority/leadership she has an obligation to speak to the general populous, the most common denominator, to explain the differences between needs and wants, expectations and ideals, “best” and “better” —as did Elder Oaks.
She taught the “ideal”. Are we offended when we hear talks about eternal families when we know not everyone has a whole member family? Do we feel offended when talks are given on motherhood when we know there are childless couples? We can feel hurt or stung, but we should not feel offended when a talk is given to the whole of the church and teaches an ideal. An IDEAL. A GOAL. Does everyone qualify or reach those goals? No. Individual circumstance prohibit many of us from temple sealing, bearing our own children, having those ideals.
My s-i-l was widowed at 29. She lost her 1st born and her husband and was left to provide for the four children under six that survived with her. She worked every day of her children’s lives. No one would fault her for that. Does she wish to stay home? Yes. Does she long for a husband and companionship? Yes. Is she offended when a leader talks to the entire congregation about what she will never have? No. She gets it.
As far as her statement that we should be “the best”…shouldn’t we? We have the fullness of the Gospel. We, in essence have everything. Do our lives reflect that? AS another G.A. pointed out, “We live far below our potential.” This is how I took the talk, “Hey. S’mee, you’ve been given a lot, what are you doing with it? Could you do better?”
The answer is “yes, I *could* do better.”
This is where both Sister Beck and Elder Oaks were trying to lead us…to the goal, the ideal, the BEST. To the desire to be more than we are, wherever that may be. Shouldn’t we want more? Shouldn’t we be more? If not we are complacent and static.
In the long run she commended the women in the church for having the tenacity to accomplish what needs to be done in each individual circumstance. To be offended by her words is ridiculous.
Comment #74 by s'meeOctober 8th, 2007 at 7:58 amThank you s’mee!! Well said!
Comment #75 by JennyOctober 8th, 2007 at 8:11 amFrom Sister Beck’s talk:
I think it is important to recognize that Sister Beck introduced the topic of homemaking by discussing nurturing. In fact, she says “another word for nurturing is homemaking. Homemaking [and nurturing] INCLUDES [but is not limited to]” the tasks she mentioned. It is through homemaking and nurturing that you as mothers have powerful influence in your homes. Thus, LDS women should be the best nurturers in the world.
And why can’t LDS women be the best nurturers in the world? As LDS members, we have an eternal perspective. We recognize that is is our opportunity to bring a child of God into our families, nurture them, train them, and teach them how to get back to their heavenly home. With that perspective shouldn’t we be the best nurturers?
I don’t think Sister Beck meant that homemaking meant housekeeping. I think Sister Beck meant homemaking is nurturing children in an atmosphere that promotes physical and spiritual growth.
I hope we are the best in the world at that.
Comment #76 by Paul POctober 8th, 2007 at 8:31 amIf the ideal is not reachable it only serves to magnify the chasm between the reacher and the unreachable. I believe a good leader would focus on a bridge rather than highlight the chasm.
Comment #77 by FroggieOctober 8th, 2007 at 8:33 amSassy–
I deleted your comment. Please be kinder to our readers in the future. You are welcome to bash me all you like–I certainly can’t expect everybody to agree with me, but please refrain from being downright nasty to people who express a different opinion than you do. Thanks.
And thanks to everybody for keeping this discussion bicker free. I am very pleased that we are talking about different perspectives of the talk in such respectful tones, and I really am very much enjoying reading what everybody has to say. I did go back and listen to part of theh talk this morning, and Sis. Beck definitely has a powerful spirit about her. I need to do more thinking about this talk, and I’m grateful to everybody for chiming in and keeping it kind.
Comment #78 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 8:34 amI loved it, even though I am rotten at keeping my house clean and organized, and fail to measure up in so many other ways. And this is why I loved it: I felt like she respected me, and the women of the Church, enough to really challenge us. The men are always getting challenged in Priesthood session. I read those talks and sometimes feel left out–I need to be called to repentance too. Talks that tell me how great I’m already doing, when I really know I have a lot to work on, leave me feeling frustrated and condescended to. Talks that help me identify things to improve on, and give me a vision of who I can become, are what I like best.
Having said that, I can definitely see that under different circumstances I could have been quite upset by this talk… it was just what I needed right now, though.
Comment #79 by Emily M.October 8th, 2007 at 9:26 amI like to compare myself to great men in history like Thomas Jefferson and see how much I don’t measure up. You could come up with countless pioneers that would fill in nicely for Thomas Jefferson here. Why haven’t I accomplished as much by 35 as, say, Brigham Young? Well, I can tell you why. I have been doing dishes. I’ve lived on the other side. When I was a single mom working 50 hours a week and going to school at night my home was in chaos. Actually, there is no word in the english language to describe how chaotic my home is. And since I graduated from school, I’ve got to tell you, I have accomplished very little. But my dishes are clean, the laundry is done. My home is more peaceful. I admit I rolled my eyes at the comments about fresh pressed dresses. But there’s no need to let that stuff get to us. I like the reasurrance that what I am spending my time on is important. It’s not going to compare much to what Thomas Jefferson or Brigham Young accomplished in their lives. But they never had to look at their laundry. And I appreciate the reassurance that giving my child a peaceful home is worthy of applause.
Comment #80 by outtamyshellOctober 8th, 2007 at 9:58 amI admit that while listening to this talk yesterday I was ironing a tablecloth and tablecloth pad for my elegant 4-course Sunday dinner table set with pinecones, acorn and fall leaf garlands, candles and even starched cheesecloth ghosts that I learned to make from marthastewartliving.com. My house is spotless, my dinner had 10 types of vegetables and 6 types of fruit in it, and none of that makes me feel like a more celestial person.
I simply and personally do not believe that housekeeping has any eternal significance one way or the other.
Last spring I was a full-time student doing up to 6 hours of rehearsal per day for an opera and in my first trimester of pregnancy. When the showers did not get Tilexed for 3 weeks and my husband offered to get us a bi-weekly housekeeper, I didn’t take it as a sign of my failure in my divinly given duties as a woman–nor did I ever consider dropping out of the opera to spend more time with the Tilex whether Sister Beck would have approved or not. I snapped it up gratefully and let the housekeeper go after the opera and a recital were completed.
Listening to Sister Beck’s talk I felt neither enraged, nor guilty, nor spiritually pricked. I felt it was one of the lowest-impact talks of the conference– someone else characterized it as having “no deep gospel mojo.” The worst aspect of the talk for me was that it was a Woman’s Talk For Women. How can we hope to see more women represented in “General” conference if the few who are allowed to speak confine themselves to a specific subset audience and address primarily peripheral doctrines which require stretching, specious inductive reasoning and sometimes pixie dust to be considered doctrines at all? Small wonder in my ward that the wife is never allowed to give the key-note speech in Sacrament Meeting. Opportunity lost, I say.
Comment #81 by CoventryOctober 8th, 2007 at 10:12 amSo right, Coventry. Stereotypes reinforced and opportunity lost.
Comment #82 by zOctober 8th, 2007 at 10:22 amSure, the same can be said of a heart surgeon, or the potato farmer; the point is to ask the question: How does this work help progress my family, and how can I best accomplish that progress.
Nice way to marginalize Sis. Beck. Perhaps you will find what you are looking for in a nice woman’s study class at the local community college. If what you are looking for is eternal families, however, you will have to settle on Pres. Hinkley presiding with Sis. Beck at the microphone.
Comment #83 by Joseph D. WalchOctober 8th, 2007 at 11:09 amJoseph D. Walch, do you seriously find every talk in every conference to have great significance in your life?
Comment #84 by Tanya SpackmanOctober 8th, 2007 at 11:12 amNo, but neither do I single out the ones I may disagree with and dismiss them with facile disregard.
The fact that there are hundreds of comments about this one talk shows the ill-judgement of the previous poster in her estimation of the significance of this talk inside and outside the Church.
Comment #85 by Joseph D. WalchOctober 8th, 2007 at 11:31 amI think it’s safe to say that nobody has dismissed this talk. And I’d also disagree that it’s a low-impact talk. Judging from the firestorm of comments here and other places, Sis Beck had quite an impact indeed.
Comment #86 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 11:42 amJoseph D. Walch,
Sis. Beck didn’t elevate potato farming or heart surgery to the level of quasi-commandment. Had she said that all men must be breadwinners and by “breadwinners” she means potato farmers we would similarly squawk.
She linked use of the word nurture (a primary role of women according to the Proclamation on the Family) to homemaking and then further defined much of homemaking as housekeeping. Given that the POTF carries great weight in this Church, she in effect elevated housekeeping to a tenet for women.
It’s not marginalization to say the conflation is unfair. Housekeeping, though important, is not a saving ordinance nor is poor housekeeping sinful.
I can’t imagine Christ at the judgment bar sniffing women’s fingers for traces of Lemon Pledge. He knows their hearts and will judge accordingly.
Comment #87 by Chad TooOctober 8th, 2007 at 11:52 amAttention: I will be closing comments when/if we get around 100 (which is about 13 comments from now). If your comment happens to fall on that number, do not assume I was offended by anything in the comment when you see the forum shut down. I just think that after 100 comments, we’ve discussed the issue in enough detail, and more than anything, I would like to avoid turning this blog into a mud slinging fest that is disrespectful to each other, our readers and the leaders of the Church.
Comment #88 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 12:05 pmMy main issue was with her word “best”.
“Latter-Day-Saint women should be the best homemakers in the world.”
Compared to whom? Non-LDS women? LDS men? I always thought comparisons bred pride, and pride is quite the sin, as we well know.
Maybe she didn’t mean it to breed a comparison, but to me that word “best” does exactly that. It would be different for me if she had LDS women should be “great” homemakers. But to be the “best” homemakers? When homemaking is nurturing, but that it also includes cooking and washing? I will never be the “best” at these things. Martha Stewart outshines me every time (and only Martha. I’m damn close to being the best.)
I will be the “best” at loving my children, possibly. But I cannot tell you for absolute certain that I love them more than their father does, or more than their grandparents, aunts, and uncles do. And I never, ever, want that to be a competition.
It’s quite possibly my issue than I connect best with competition. I can accept that, and do the best I can. But doing the best I can, and being the best one in the world are two very different things. I really do think she used poor phrasing there.
Comment #89 by The WizOctober 8th, 2007 at 12:15 pmWow - I never expected to see such a response to a General Conference talk. If I’m out-of-turn, excuse me….I only read the first half of the above comments. I just wanted to put in my two-cents. I may be one of the mothers who “needed” this talk. It felt…challenging. I’m a mother of one (who’s 12 months old)…who, within the past two weeks, has switched her baby from breast to bottle. (Sorry, die-hards: too many teeth makes for a cranky mommmy!) I guess I just wanted to say that…the talk could have been belittling or offensive, but to me, it felt like a challenge to rise up and be better. It felt like she painted a picture of a “perfect” woman…and somehow, I was able to just take the gist of it and incorporate it. Maybe I pick something up off the floor, instead of walking past it. Maybe I stay up a few minutes later to sweep the floor once a month. However, maybe some days (like last Friday night), the kitchen was a mess, dinner wasn’t done…but daddy wasn’t coming home that night, baby wanted to play, and I told myself to just sit down and play with my baby while I have the chance. I don’t think Sister Beck was telling us to ignore our kids. I think she was…challenging us to be the best we can be, whatever that is. “Mothers who know do less.” Heavenly Father knows whatever our best is, and He only expects us to reach for that.
Comment #90 by TeahOctober 8th, 2007 at 12:18 pmThe talk made me freak out and cry, but I am a crazy pregnant woman.
I am 18 weeks pregnant with my first, and I have hated every second of being pregnant. I never, ever ever EVER want to go through this again. I am not great with kids and never wanted to be a mother, so to me the “Mothers who know desire to bear children” statement was like “If you don’t want kids and have as many as you possibly can, you’re a failure.” I realize that is not how it was meant, but that is how I took it. I’m also not doing so well on the housekeeping part, partly because I am ridiculously sick from growing babies and partly because I hate where we live and see no point in cleaning if I hate it just the same dirty, ha ha.
After reading the talk over again, I feel a lot better about it. I also have found the comments here helpful in that I have been able to see both sides of the story. It’s good that this talk helped “raise the bar” for some, but I am equally glad that I am not the only person who cried at this talk. Makes me feel less crazy.
Anyway, I have no helpful comments except that reading the talk helped a lot, and …well, that was it
Comment #91 by KrisisOctober 8th, 2007 at 12:38 pmWiz, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
I also want to speak to those who have said that if we are offended, we are making ourselves the victim. I am not offended by this talk. I am not offended by her champion of what some would classify as a stereotypical gender role. After all, I have chosen to live such a paradigm.
I felt discouraged by this talk. No, I’m sure it was not Sis. Beck’s intention to discourage. Quite the opposite, I’m sure. But is it possible to suggest that perhaps she made a mistake in how she presented her topic? Is it possible that despite her prayers and inspiration and nod from the priesthood, that she incorporated things that were actually hurtful to some women? Do we put our leaders on such a high pedestal as to make it impossible for them to err?
I trust our leaders, I trust them to make good choices for us, and I have respect for Sis. Beck. I also think that she could have chosen to deliver her message in a different way, with different phrasing, that would have left a lot less women so discouraged.
Comment #92 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 12:42 pmhi not been here before was following a link thru fmh…found sis becks talk difficult at times i agree with 80% of what she said but i thought what about time for the woman herself? we don’t all go out to work just for the money but sometimes personal fulfillment as well which is blessing & the home is not jsut a preparation for MTC there is life after a mission for goodness sake..& that is when some problems start!
sorry but i did feel that her talk has set RS back 100 yrs..in fact my dh turned to me during it and said well that’s just upset a few thousand sisters before i even had a chance to comment
not looking forward to it being chosen as a lesson in rs 4th sunday….!
Debrauk
debrauk
Comment #93 by debraukOctober 8th, 2007 at 1:04 pmHeather, I finally found the right words to explain why I have been so disappointed in much of the reaction to this talk. It also addresses why I like the title of your post so much. Here it is:
Setting identical standards for different situations and talks regarding those situations is a *huge* mistake - and why those who castigate Sister Beck for not being sensitive to each and every listener are doing to her and those who needed her talk exactly what they are railing about her doing to them. The central message seems to be, “Others might have needed what she said, but I didn’t - so shame on her.”
I mean this with the most sincere respect possible, but if she had delivered your talk, she probably would have uplifted and inspired you and many others - but she also probably would NOT have touched those many who *were* inspired by the talk she actually did give.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say; it took me over 24 hours to figure it out myself.
Comment #94 by RayOctober 8th, 2007 at 1:24 pmRay,
You are right of course: no talk can be all things to all people. As I said, this talk didn’t move me one way or the other. I think the reason it got so much press is for the potential ill effects on those that it did move, namely, inducing unnecessary guilt by building up The Perfect Mormon SAHM idol in whose shadow so many Mormon women are already desperately languishing.
My husband’s comment on it was, “She just wrote another 5,000 prescriptions for Prozac.” I hope he’s wrong.
Comment #95 by CoventryOctober 8th, 2007 at 1:52 pmThe thing is, Ray, she didn’t say the talk wasn’t for everyone. It appears that she thinks it _is_ for everyone.
Comment #96 by zOctober 8th, 2007 at 2:16 pmFor one as a modern mom, yes a single mom even at that, I felt that here remarks hit the mark, and they may not of been what you needed or wanted to hear but they are what our Heavenly Father would have her share.
I think we as sisters need to remember that first and foremost, and who are we to instruct the General RElief Society prez? I think she would of prayed for hours, fasted etc to know what she should share.
As for not all of us being moms, you are correct thier but WE all will be..that she made clearer then I have heard taught recently and what comfort that can be to many.
I didnt hear her once say or be as radical as Come home moms, but more so encouraged us to make the best choices we can with what we are given. To remember what matters most…to be a woman in the know, and I am thankful for her message….as a single mom who flys by the seat of my pants most days.
Comment #97 by HollieOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:00 pmRay-
I understand what you are trying to say. Thanks for trying to understand what I am trying to say.
Who am I to instruct the General Relief Society President? I’m just one of her flock who felt very very discouraged by what she had to say. Maybe that’s my fault–I didn’t approach her words with the spirit in which they were given. I’ll buy that. I’ve been encouraged by mknay of the comments here, and I’m looking forward to listening to her talk uninterupted (if that’s possible to do with a 4 month old baby) But we are part of a sisterhood, and I think it’s okay to say, “Hey, that hurt today”.
Comment #98 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 3:21 pmIt makes me sad that people are offended by what the Lord wishes us to hear. I am from a part member home and could find offense in every conference, meeting, and church activity if I chose to. I instead take their words and try to prayerfully apply it to my life. I am learning that being offended is a choice that I make. I choose not to be offended by the Lord.
Comment #99 by HeatherOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:25 pmI’m wondering how many people were actually offended, and how many were simply discouraged. I think there’s a difference, and people on all sides seem to be conflating them. I’ve read much more discouragement (i.e., the talk led to more disappointment in failures, hurt, pain, that sort of thing) than offense.
For me, I wouldn’t consider myself offended. I’m not a mother and never will be so it doesn’t even apply to me. However, it hurt anyway because I can think of people I love who I knew would feel beat down.
Maybe the difference between discouragement and offense isn’t as large as I think. However, it seems to be different.
Comment #100 by Tanya SpackmanOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:37 pmThis is where apostasy begins.
Comment #101 by amyOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:41 pmIt’s not just discouragement, it’s substantive disagreement. And disappointment that a rare opportunity for a woman to speak was used to reinforce generally-held stereotypes about women and perpetuate the mommy wars. There’s a lot more to being a woman than motherhood and homemaking.
Comment #102 by zOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:43 pmhttp://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-646-32,00.html
Here’s an excellent talk given by Elder Bednar in October Conference 2006.
Comment #103 by KourtneyOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:48 pmI think it’s important not to conflate personal offense, e.g. rudeness or individual bias and unfairness, with offensiveness in the political context. It seems that a lot of people use “offensive” to mean an idea that is, when you really think about it, based on unacceptable tenets such as racism, women as property, etc.. That use of “offensive” denotes a substantive disagreement, and I think it’s a legitimate reason to speak up or otherwise protest.
Comment #104 by zOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:52 pmAmy, in my experience the road to apostasy too often begins from a fundamentalist mindset that believes our church leaders are infallible. When one has that mindset and finds out that it is incorrect, such a person often leaves the church thinking everyone lied to them. Thus, I see discussion such as this very healthy for testimonies.
Comment #105 by Tanya SpackmanOctober 8th, 2007 at 3:53 pmKourtney-
Thanks for the link. I think we covered that for most of us, we were not offended, just discouraged. And there is a difference.
I am now closing comments, not because of you, but because I just noticed that we have passed the 100 mark. I would like to thank everybody who has participated in this discussion, and I am pleased that for the most part, it did not disintegrate into name calling and finger pointing. If anybody would like to continue the discussion with me personally (call me to repentence, pat me on the back, give me some free chocolate), I am always available at heather at mormonmommywars dot com.
I would also like to state, for the record, that we at MMW respect Sis. Beck, and are aware of the challenges she faces in her new calling as the head of a world-wide women’s organization.
I love our readers. Thanks very much.
Comment #106 by Heather O.October 8th, 2007 at 3:55 pm[…] Mormon Mommy Wars, What I Wish President Beck had Said […]
Pingback #107 by Offended Marks on Foreheads « The ShitakiesOctober 9th, 2007 at 7:11 am[…] In case you don’t know the Biblical reference read, Luke 10:38-42 and John 11:19-21. As I read Heather’s concerns about some of the conference talks, and read the comments, I realized that how you heard or interpreted the talks depended greatly on whether you are a Mary or a Martha. It seems to me Sister Beck was talking to the Marthas of this world, while Elder Oaks, spoke to the Marys. As I recall, he even referenced the story and made no distinction on which was better or worse, just noted the differences. […]
Pingback #108 by Mormon Mommy Wars » Mary or Martha?October 10th, 2007 at 10:03 am[…] OK, I know I probably shouldn’t be posting my own personal complaint about the talk that has already been deconstructed all over the Bloggernacle. But all this debate over career vs. getting your whites whiter than white seems to have missed what (to me) was the most disturbing thing in the entire talk. […]
Pingback #109 by Children — not possessions, not position, not prestige — are our greatest status symbols | Main Street PlazaOctober 12th, 2007 at 3:57 am[…] And I wasn’t alone. The talk sparked a hundreds of comments around the Mormon blogosphere (see here, here, here and here). But most of these comments and posts were from women who both are married and have children (posted on sites titled Feminist Mormon Housewives and Mormon Mommy Wars). I can’t imagine her talk must have come as a surprise to most of them. But I have been wondering how Sister Beck’s talk came across to that growing demographic: the single-not-necessarily-by-choice Mormon woman. […]
Pingback #110 by Bristling at Beck « Andrew’s Miracle DrugOctober 15th, 2007 at 11:42 am[…] Apparently, LDS President Gordon Hinckley and Elder Boyd Packer have taken the occasion of the latest multicast stake conference on Sunday, October 21 to rally around Relief Society President Julie Beck whose conference address has been widely discussed on the ‘nacle and the Damu. […]
Pingback #111 by Free Saints | Main Street PlazaOctober 23rd, 2007 at 8:14 am[…] Transcript of Boyd Packer’s Address at Multi-Stake Conference October 31st, 2007 by Hellmut Editorial Note: I have previously reported about rumors of Boyd Packer’s and Gordon Hinckley’s response to criticism of Julie Beck’s conference address, which has not only been discussed with a variety of points of view on the Bloggernacle and the DAMU but also by readers posting on the websites of various Utah newspapers. […]
Pingback #112 by Transcript of Boyd Packer’s Address at Multi-Stake Conference | Main Street PlazaOctober 31st, 2007 at 2:48 am